On 2/14/2013 11:34 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:17:08 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:

    On 2/14/2013 9:43 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


    On Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:52:21 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul
    King wrote:

        On 2/14/2013 6:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
        > I don't think there are any models or systems at all. Not
        physically.
        > There are only presentations and re-presentations. Habits
        and inertia.

             I agree, they cannot be "physical" at all, they are
        representations
        not things-in-themselves (objects). The trick is to see the
        difference
        between the general properties of representations and objects
        while not
        thinking of they as separable. For any object there exist at
        least one
        representation and for every representation there exists at
        least one
        object. This sets up the isomorphism of the Stone duality.


    I'm on board with that, but I think to complete the picture, both
    the subjective representations (models) and objective
    representations (objects) should be understood to exist only
    through subjective presentations (sense). The isomorphism of the
    Stone duality requires sense to relate topologies to algebras,
    i.e. they don't relate to each other directly and independently
    of an observer. The duality is a reflection of the observer's
    capacity to observe.

    Craig

        OK, let's take it to the next step. Let us agree that "they
    don't relate to each other directly and independently of an
    observer", they being represented as X and Y. Does this require
    that there does not exist an observer Z than can see both of X's
    and Y's total world lines simultaneously? If the world line of Z
    is longer than that of X and Y by some number then they would be
    able to communicate directly (well you know what I mean) and thus
    be able to come to some complete agreement that Z knows all about
    X and Y.
        Could Z be said to 'know' a representation of the life and
    times of X and Y?


Like to you (Z), I am histories of experiences which are associated with me (Y) and I am a body which is located right now in a house in North Carolina (X). Your Y is private, but your X is much more public - I am a body in a house in NC to any Z who is a person, dog, cat, etc. Not to a plant really, or a molecule, to those distant kinds of Z, I don't exist at all.

Craig,

Right, exactly right! From Z and X, Y is a p-zombie, a physical mindless robot. What does X see of Z and Y? The same kinda thing. And Y, what does it see? Seeing is within Sense...


Everyone's XY for me put together adds up to basically (Absolute minus Z).

Only if I stipulate that only X, Y and Z exist would I agree. If there are, say, 10^23 witnesses, like Z and X are of Y's physical acts, what difference would that make? None! So long as all of this witnesses could back up each others narratives.


My Z is what is being borrowed from the Absolute inertial frame temporarily, and my XY is the like shadow that it casts. It's complicated of course, because all of the X, Y, and Z feedback multiple loops on each other too. Very pretzely.

You assuming that one of those p's is absolute in some way. None are, all cast shadows equivalently on each other or they would not co-exist at all.


Craig


-- Onward!

    Stephen

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--
Onward!

Stephen

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