On 2/19/2013 4:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:18 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
On 2/19/2013 2:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be
about its "character"? I know from a formal perspective the answer
nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth.
This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate
Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is
other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to
anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the
Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations
their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite
You're just making this up.
I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such
processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact
find an infinite number of them.
Ok, show me just one.
The program is too long to fit in your inbox. However, if you think that the
biochemistry of the brain is Turing emulable, then there are programs which describe all
the greatest geniuses who have ever lived: Leonardo, Tesla, Democritus, Newton, Euclid,
Einstein, Von Neumann, Feynman, Ramanujan, Sidis, etc. It follows then that there is
also a program emulating the interaction of all of them and all their productions and
discoveries over a billion years,
You seem to forget that Einstein wasted his later years looking for a classical TOE,
Newton spent his time writing commentaries on the bible, Tesla became a crank,... Being a
genius and living a long time doesn't mean you get more good ideas. And interaction
doesn't necessarily improve IQ, as anyone who has sat in management meetings can attest.
including perhaps their own tinkering and recursive self-improvement of their own
intelligence once they develop a theory of the brain's function and operation. Now
imagine all of this thought and discovery occurring every millisecond. Would that not be
a super-intelligence process? You can always imagine a program that has X times more
super geniuses, or operating Y times faster.
Imagining doesn't make it so.
The problem then becomes, to stimulate
Stimulation depends on the being having motivation. Humans have motivations provided by
evolution. But you're imagining some kind of immaterial minds who are motivated by pure
mathematical curiosity - in which case they're not going to care about you.
and improve these minds, you need a complex and rich enough environment to demand that
greater intelligence, otherwise it will stagnate and become bored. Mathematics is that
infinite font of ideas, relations, patterns, problems, etc. which is inexhaustible and
has infinitely many levels of axiomatic systems. If super intelligences evolve from
universes like ours
You haven't explained how natural selection is going to favor the superintelligent when it
doesn't even favor the intelligent here and now.
(only with unlimited sources of energy / no upper limit on the communicate speed) no
matter how rich their starting universe is, it will be boring compared to the unlimited
richness of math, which is where they may inevitably turn their attentions.
The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so
evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite
evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits
environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred
I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist
intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical
Even assuming arithmetical realism physics and intelligence go together and
arise from evolution. You seem to be postulating God(s) in Platonia, not
can act here, they are just numbers and theorems.
These demi-gods cannot change what happens in other branches and subsections of
What 'branches'? Have you solved the problem of the appearance of the
but they can resume/continue/recreate occurrences and beings from other parts of the UDA
into their own part. E.g., let's say a demi-god was exploring one particular part of
the UD and noticed some life form was about to experience a painful death. The demi-god
might decide to instantiate 5 incarnations of that being in that same moment and thus
provide an 80% chance that the being survives and does not experience that painful
death. Or perhaps, right at the instant of that being's death, provides a continuation
path such that the being has a 100% chance of continuing in that demi-god's domain of
They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same
(that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite
intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter.
despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind,
possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these
super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes
With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences
power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being
from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible
the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious
in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their
these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being
moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that
desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is
right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree
the right thing to do and will do it.
Right by whose measure?
Right according to the minds of the super intelligences. It is said when
intelligent people disagree it is due to a difference in data.
A lot of things are said.
Well these intelligences have access to all the same mathematical truth.
define intelligence as the probability of being correct on any given
super intelligent entities ought to always agree, on questions of math,
mind, theology, morality, what's right and what's wrong, etc.
If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves?
Maybe those God(s) do love you.
And maybe it/they hate you.
Of the species on Earth, compassion seems to correlate with intelligence. You read
about dolphins saving injured animals from drowning, or protecting people from sharks,
and so on.
And humans practice torture.
While this might be a fluke of evolutionary history on Earth, I think that if
universalism is true, compassion, understanding, and love for others becomes an
inevitable conclusion. If universalism is true, then super-intelligences will likely
come to believe it. They will realize that if one person suffers, they too will
experience that suffering, and thus they may hold a morality similar to "treat others
how they wish to be treated", and "do good".
When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my
That's nice, but it doesn't really add anything to this debate.
It points to the danger of invoking gods to do your ethical thinking for
Well this is the opposite. This is me doing the thinking on the ethics, and saying if I
am right that the Demi-gods should come to the same conclusion.
How neatly self-validating. If I'm right about the gods then the gods will prove I'm
right. I'll be Torquemada told himself the same thing.
Theists always worry that without God there will be no absolute right and
worry that there will be.
That there will be what?
Absolute right and wrong.
"Ignore fact and reason, live entirely in the world of your own fantastic myth-producing
passions; do this whole-heartedly and with conviction, and you will become one of the
prophets of your age."
--- Bertrand Russell
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