On 2/19/2013 4:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:18 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 2/19/2013 2:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

    On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
    <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

        On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

        On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
        <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

            On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:

            If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be 
            about its "character"? I know from a formal perspective the answer 
            nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth.

            This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate 
            to anthropomorphize.

            Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is 
            other than wishful thinking?  Do you also have a desire to
            anthropormorphize the periodic table?  the solar system?  the
            infinitesimal calculus?

        Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations 
resources at
        their disposal.  They can evolve forever, and approach infinite 
        and knowledge.

        You're just making this up.

    I'm not.  Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such 
    processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact 
you will
    find an infinite number of them.

    Ok, show me just one.

The program is too long to fit in your inbox. However, if you think that the biochemistry of the brain is Turing emulable, then there are programs which describe all the greatest geniuses who have ever lived: Leonardo, Tesla, Democritus, Newton, Euclid, Einstein, Von Neumann, Feynman, Ramanujan, Sidis, etc. It follows then that there is also a program emulating the interaction of all of them and all their productions and discoveries over a billion years,

You seem to forget that Einstein wasted his later years looking for a classical TOE, Newton spent his time writing commentaries on the bible, Tesla became a crank,... Being a genius and living a long time doesn't mean you get more good ideas. And interaction doesn't necessarily improve IQ, as anyone who has sat in management meetings can attest.

including perhaps their own tinkering and recursive self-improvement of their own intelligence once they develop a theory of the brain's function and operation. Now imagine all of this thought and discovery occurring every millisecond. Would that not be a super-intelligence process? You can always imagine a program that has X times more super geniuses, or operating Y times faster.

Imagining doesn't make it so.

The problem then becomes, to stimulate

Stimulation depends on the being having motivation. Humans have motivations provided by evolution. But you're imagining some kind of immaterial minds who are motivated by pure mathematical curiosity - in which case they're not going to care about you.

and improve these minds, you need a complex and rich enough environment to demand that greater intelligence, otherwise it will stagnate and become bored. Mathematics is that infinite font of ideas, relations, patterns, problems, etc. which is inexhaustible and has infinitely many levels of axiomatic systems. If super intelligences evolve from universes like ours

You haven't explained how natural selection is going to favor the superintelligent when it doesn't even favor the intelligent here and now.

(only with unlimited sources of energy / no upper limit on the communicate speed) no matter how rich their starting universe is, it will be boring compared to the unlimited richness of math, which is where they may inevitably turn their attentions.

        The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so
        evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence.  It is also quite 
possible that
        evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits 
        environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred 
thousand years.

    I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist
    intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical 

    Even assuming arithmetical realism physics and intelligence go together and 
    arise from evolution.  You seem to be postulating God(s) in Platonia, not 
ones that
    can act here, they are just numbers and theorems.

These demi-gods cannot change what happens in other branches and subsections of 
the UD,

What 'branches'?  Have you solved the problem of the appearance of the 
quasi-classical world?

but they can resume/continue/recreate occurrences and beings from other parts of the UDA into their own part. E.g., let's say a demi-god was exploring one particular part of the UD and noticed some life form was about to experience a painful death. The demi-god might decide to instantiate 5 incarnations of that being in that same moment and thus provide an 80% chance that the being survives and does not experience that painful death. Or perhaps, right at the instant of that being's death, provides a continuation path such that the being has a 100% chance of continuing in that demi-god's domain of control.

        They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same 
        (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite
        intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter.  
        despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, 
opinion, and
        possibly character.  The number of fundamental questions on which these
        super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes
        towards infinity.

        With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences 
have the
        power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being 
        from).  These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible 
        the outcome if they fail to act.  There is much suffering of conscious 
        in the physical universes.  With infinite computing power at their 
        these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being 
from the
        moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that 
        desires.  This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is 
        right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree 
it is
        the right thing to do and will do it.

        Right by whose measure?

    Right according to the minds of the super intelligences.  It is said when
    intelligent people disagree it is due to a difference in data.

    A lot of things are said.

    Well these intelligences have access to all the same mathematical truth.  
If you
    define intelligence as the probability of being correct on any given 
question, then
    super intelligent entities ought to always agree, on questions of math, 
theories of
    mind, theology, morality, what's right and what's wrong, etc.

        If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves?

    Maybe those God(s) do love you.

    And maybe it/they hate you.

Of the species on Earth, compassion seems to correlate with intelligence. You read about dolphins saving injured animals from drowning, or protecting people from sharks, and so on.

And humans practice torture.

While this might be a fluke of evolutionary history on Earth, I think that if universalism is true, compassion, understanding, and love for others becomes an inevitable conclusion. If universalism is true, then super-intelligences will likely come to believe it. They will realize that if one person suffers, they too will experience that suffering, and thus they may hold a morality similar to "treat others how they wish to be treated", and "do good".

        When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my 

    That's nice, but it doesn't really add anything to this debate.

    It points to the danger of invoking gods to do your ethical thinking for 

Well this is the opposite. This is me doing the thinking on the ethics, and saying if I am right that the Demi-gods should come to the same conclusion.

How neatly self-validating. If I'm right about the gods then the gods will prove I'm right. I'll be Torquemada told himself the same thing.

    Theists always worry that without God there will be no absolute right and 
wrong. I
    worry that there will be.

That there will be what?

Absolute right and wrong.

"Ignore fact and reason, live entirely in the world of your own fantastic myth-producing passions; do this whole-heartedly and with conviction, and you will become one of the prophets of your age."
    ---  Bertrand Russell

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