On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:44:23 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
>  On 2/19/2013 12:05 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>  
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:39:14 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: 
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  > I would assume that geometric truths don't contradict arithmetic 
>>> truths.
>>>
>>
>> And arithmetical truths don't contradict geometrical truths, and a 3D 
>> geometrical machine can provide answers to arithmetical questions, and a 1D 
>> arithmetical machine can provide answers to 3D geometrical questions; so 
>> what's the problem?
>>
>>  >>"under some arithmetical conditions" numbers behave exactly precisely 
>>>> in the way that Euclid said geometric objects should behave.
>>>>
>>>
>>> > That doesn't say anything about arithmetic becoming geometry. A 
>>> program can predict exactly how an apple will fall from a tree, but that 
>>> doesn't mean that if apples didn't exist, the program would create them.
>>>
>>
>> You talk a lot about qualia but you haven't thought it through. You know 
>> nothing about apples themselves you only know about the sensation of 
>> experiencing the apple qualia. 
>>  
>  The color red is not a apple, the taste of a apple is not a apple, and 
>> the feel of a apple is not a apple either. The only thing you know about 
>> apples is the way your brain, using the laws of arithmetic, interprets a 
>> one dimensional signal that comes over a wire into your brain when one of 
>> your sense organs encounters an apple.
>>  
>
> The only thing you know about the brain is the way that people have used 
> instruments, using a one dimensional signal that comes into a wire from 
> some probe or meter. In the case of the apple, the signal is 
> multi-dimensional, a result of evolved relations on many levels, from 
> biological to molecular to zoological, from acoustic sensitivity to 
> optical, thermal, kinetic, olfactory, vestibular, etc, as well as cultural, 
> social, psychological, and cognitive understandings. 
>
> Looking at an apple, smelling, and tasting the apple, I experience 
> everything that matters about apples in human history. We would not know or 
> care about apples if not for the qualia. When we talk about apples, we are 
> talking about qualia. We can talk about sugar content or cellular 
> structure, but there is nothing apple-like about that. Those are generic 
> metrics that are meaningless on their own.
>  
>
> Hi Craig,
>
>     To add to your point. How are all of those independent sense data 
> points integrated into a unified 'whole' that is the content of the sense 
> of an entity? So many people, like Minsky and Dennett tend to hand-wave 
> through answers to that question....
>

Right, and why would that whole be formatted in these different ways? If 
you have vision, why wouldn't sound, smell, taste, etc just appear on a 
visual dashboard? If information is information, then it shouldn't matter 
how it is formatted.
 

>
>
>  
>   
>>  >> Numbers have also told us something we could not have found out in 
>>>> any other way, that Euclid's way is not the only way that geometric 
>>>> objects 
>>>> can behave that is logically consistent. And then Einstein, also using 
>>>> numbers, showed that not only is this non-Euclidean way possible it is the 
>>>> only way to figure out how things change in very powerful gravitational 
>>>> fields.
>>>>
>>>
>>> > Yes, because have geometry (because of our sensory experience = no 
>>> thanks to arithmetic),
>>>
>>
>> No thanks to arithmetic?? You take it for granted but the fact is every 
>> bit of your vaulted 3D "sensory experience" comes to you through signals 
>> sent down a ONE dimensional wire to your brain which then interprets it as 
>> a 3D space. 
>>
>
> There is no 'one dimensional wire to your brain'. The optic nerve is a 
> community of living organisms, just like the rest of our body. Nothing is 
> one dimensional except abstract models in our minds. Your assumptions about 
> perception and 'signals' aren't realistic, and they have nothing to do with 
> the existence of geometry. Why should any signals be interpreted as 3D 
> space? Where do the dimensions come from? Certainly not arithmetic - it 
> needs no visual shapes and volumes to calculate how to respond to a given 
> set of conditions.
>  
>
>> As apologists for vitalism and other such medieval views never tire in 
>> pointing out, electromagnetic waves 7700 angstroms long are NOT the qualia 
>> red, and in exactly the same way you have ZERO direct experience with 3D 
>> space, you only have experience with the qualia of 3D space, a experience 
>> orchestrated by your brain, a organ which operates entirely according to 
>> the laws of arithmetic.
>>  
>
> You have no support for your supersitition that there is a such thing as 
> 3D space independent of that experience orchestrated by a brain and you 
> have no way of knowing what laws the brain runs on because your view of the 
> brain has no possibility for consciousness to exist through it. Likewise 
> there is no evidence that the brain orchestrates any experiences at all. We 
> know that it changes our experiences, or changes our access to them, but we 
> have never seen an experience created.
>  
>
>     Superstition indeed! A habit at best is what we can say about what we 
> experience of the *out there*.  
>
>
>  
>   
>> > neither geometry or arithmetic imply each other without our sense of 
>>> relation between visually experienced shapes
>>>
>>
>> Visual relationships generated by your brain using arithmetical processes.
>>  
>
> If that were true. then they would not need to be visual. No arithmetic 
> process has ever generated anything except other arithmetic processes. 
> Please give me an example of any arithmetic process which generates 
> physical or experiential consequences.
>  
>
>     Asking too much is not a good foil for that thrust...
>
>   
>  
>>
>> > Without shapes, angles, lines, volumes, there are only invisible 
>>> quantitative relationships.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about "invisible" but complex numbers can be both 
>> qualitative as well as quantitative, they can have both a magnitude and a 
>> direction.
>>  
>
> No. All of the qualities of numbers are figurative. The direction and 
> magnitude are poetic and abstract, not spatial.  
>
>  
>>  > Eyes can see, but not like humans see. There are plankton with eyes. 
>>> No brain is required to see.
>>>
>>
>> Plankton "eyes" can't form a image, not even a 2D one, about all they can 
>> do is tell the difference between light and dark and then the animal either 
>> swims toward or away from the light depending on the species. Photoreceptor 
>> cells converts light into a electrical signal 
>>
>
> No. Light is not 'converted' into anything. No more than paying for lunch 
> converts paper rectangles onto a hamburger. I don't know what plankton's 
> visual experience consists of, but I know that the principle by which it 
> has that experience is the same principle as the one which gives us images, 
> and that it does not require a brain to experience optical conditions.
>  
>  
>> and transmits it through a nerve to cells endowed with thin hairs called 
>> cilia that undulate to displace water and move the animal. There are toys 
>> that do much the same thing, and they only need a small handful of 
>> transistors and a very simple first generation Charge Coupled Device to do 
>> it. In fact forget the CCD, just use a bit of selenium as found in a 1940's 
>> era light meter.
>>  
>
> That's what I'm saying, sensitivity is primitive.
>  
>  
>>  
>> > Cameras do not allow computers to see, they only generate data which is 
>>> interpreted invisibly and meaninglessly.
>>>
>>
>> I have no idea what you mean by "invisibly" but if the way computers 
>> process data is meaningless why is computer data processing a 
>> multi-trillion dollar industry?
>>  
>
> Because it is valuable to us to be informed. It isn't because computers 
> value their own data.
>  
>
>     OK, but let us try to figure out how we come to value our own data. We 
> might get somewhere... :-)
>

I think that value is the kind of sense which motivates emotionally.
 

>
>
>   
>  
>>
>>  > I don't demand that AI prove it is conscious, I understand why it is 
>>> not conscious.
>>>
>>
>> Your "understanding" of consciousness is supported by 2 pillars, the 
>> second is more important than the first:
>>
>> 1) I am made of carbon and conscious, but computers are made of silicon, 
>> therefore computers can never be conscious.
>>  
>
> I'm not made of carbon, I am made of personal experiences. My body is made 
> of tissue, which is made of cells, which are made of sugars, proteins, 
> lipids, and lots of water. Carbon plays an important role in the molecules, 
> but it is *absurd* to say that I am made of carbon. It's like saying that 
> the Earth is just a ball of iron and nickel. It is not because computers 
> are made of silicon, but because anything that does not become a living 
> being by itself can't generate a history of personal experiences of 
> human>animal>cellular quality.
>  
>  
>>
>> 2) I would prefer it if computers were not conscious, therefore computers 
>> are not conscious, thus the laws of physics must somehow forbid conscious 
>> computers.
>>  
>
> Wrong again. I don't care whether computers are conscious or not. Why 
> would I? What I say is that I observe that they are not conscious, and so 
> do many other. The laws of physics as you understand them forbid any form 
> of consciousness, but you can't tolerate that, so the laws of physics must 
> somehow allow it through a shroud of 'complexity'.
>  
>  
>>  
>> I honestly don't think your reasoning on this matter is one smidgen more 
>> sophisticated than that.
>>  
>
> Then that shows that your prejudice has blinded you to all except your own 
> prejudice.
>  
>  
>>
>>  >>what aspect of geometry have numbers failed to capture?
>>>>
>>>
>>> > The geometric aspect.
>>>
>>
>> Well I'm glad you cleared that up.
>>  
>
> The geometric aspect = all that uniquely comprises geometry - angles, 
> lines, planes, shapes, points. What else is there?
>
> Craig 
>  
>  
>
> -- 
> Onward!
>
> Stephen
>
>  

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