On 2/20/2013 1:08 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:

    On 2/19/2013 8:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


    On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Stephen P. King
    <stephe...@charter.net <mailto:stephe...@charter.net>> wrote:

        On 2/19/2013 12:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


        On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist
        <yann...@gmail.com <mailto:yann...@gmail.com>> wrote:

            On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch
            <jasonre...@gmail.com <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
            >
            >
            > On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb
            <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:
            >>
            >> On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything
            is there to be said
            >> about its "character"? I know from a formal
            perspective the answer is
            >> nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth.
            >>
            >> This is more of an informal question, and comes out
            of my innate desire to
            >> anthropomorphize.
            >>
            >>
            >> Why would you suppose that your desire to
            anthropomorphize is anything
            >> other than wishful thinking?  Do you also have a
            desire to anthropormorphize
            >> the periodic table?  the solar system?  the
            infinitesimal calculus?
            >>
            >
            >
            > Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite
            computations resources
            > at their disposal.  They can evolve forever, and
            approach infinite
            > intelligence and knowledge.  They all explore the same
            mathematical truth
            > and thus having the same data (that of mathematical
            truth they explore)
            > together with near infinite intelligence, they are
            almost never wrong on any
            > question or matter.  Thus, despite possibly different
            origins, they are all
            > of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character.  The
            number of fundamental
            > questions on which these super intelligence disagree
            goes towards zero as
            > their intelligence goes towards infinity.

            If our universe is holographic, the computational
            resources are
            limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a
            maximum possible
            10^122 bits
            Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf


        I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite
        computational resources, but that some other universes
        might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those
        universes are unbounded.

        Jason
--
        Hi Jason,

            Would you care to speculate whether or not those
        demi-gods (in other universes that have access to infinite
        resources) would have Platonist theories of mathematics?


    Any question to me of the form "Do I think the demi-gods will
    believe X", boils down to "Do I think X is correct?".  I think
    you know where I stand on Platonist theories of mathematics.
    Whether or not the demi-gods also believe it mostly depends on
    whether its correct or if it has more credence than the other
    alternatives.

    Jason

    Hi Jason,

        It seems to me that the demi-gods would not be motivated to
    have Platonist-like ontologies. As I see things, only we of finite
    resources concoct such Platonist theories to give ourselves the
    illusion of superpowers to explain away the mysterious fact that
    we can understand mathematics. I have yet to see a neo-Platonist
    explain without hand-waving how it is that a physical brain can
    access knowledge from Platonia.


I made such a proposal about 2 months ago in a thread titled "How mathematical truth might enter our universe". You posted in the thread but never directly to my original post on the matter. Feel free to re-ignite that thread if you would like to discuss this topic further.

Jason
--

Hi Jason,

    Somehow I missed it. Here it is again for my comment.

On 12/12/2012 11:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
All,

One of the questions in mathematics is where does mathematical truth come from, if it exists platonically, how does it manifest physically (e.g. as the utterances of mathematicians).

I had a thought inspired by one of Roger's posts regarding cause and effect extending outside of spacetime. I thought, there is nothing preventing the goings on in this universe from having causal implications outside our universe. Consider that an advanced civilization might choose to simulate our universe and inspect it. Then when they observe what happens in our universe the observations generate causal effects in their own universe. The same applies to our universe, we might choose to observe another universe through simulation, and our discoveries or observations of that other universe change us. Thus, the various universes that can exist out there are more interconnected than we might suppose. Our universe is an open book to those universes possessing sufficient computational power to simulate it. Likewise, how simple universes like certain small instances of the game of life are open books to us. The possibilities of gliders in the GoL has led to many discussions about GoL gliders, their existence in the GoL universe has led to the manifestation of physical changes in our own universe.

I think the entrance of mathematical truth to our own universe is no different. Mathematicians have used their minds to simulate objects and structures that exist in other universes, in a sense they observe them, and then those mathematicians report their observations and discoveries concerning those objects, just as an advanced civilization might report discoveries about our universe, or we might report discoveries about the GoL universe. Thus the structures and objects which exist in other universes have directly changed the course of the evolution of our own.

Jason
I pretty much agree with all of this post. I would only add that some consideration needs to be made of the resource availability issue. If a given system X does not have sufficient access to resources to simulate Y, then X cannot 'know' all of Y.


--
Onward!

Stephen

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