On 23 Feb 2013, at 04:44, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/22/2013 6:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Friday, February 22, 2013 7:45:58 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 2/22/2013 3:06 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:54:05 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> What to you think with, your elbow?

> my point was that you have a double standard about which brain activities represent nothing but evolutionary driven illusions

Illusions? Evolutionary drive is what made you the man you are today. And interpreting a 1D signal from the eye as 3D space is as valid a interpretation as any other, and apparently Evolution has determined that particular interpretation gets the most genes into the next generation. Thus you are good at 3D visualization because your ancestors were good at it too. You come from a long line of winners, most animals never manage to reproduce but every single one of your ancestors did.

A successful evolutionary outcome doesn't have anything to do with the veracity of the content of a signal. If someone has a delusion that their ancestors are sacred turnip people and it causes them to plant turnips and survive a famine, that doesn't mean that their belief is not a delusion. There seems to be this theme with your positions which fanatically exaggerates the importance of winning, and how winning justifies whatever distortions of the truth are required

On the contrary, John is saying that evolution must align perception at least roughly with reality because misalignment is likely to go badly - like when the turnip people keep planting turnips because their ancestor said so even though the turnip beetle keeps decimating their crops.

It doesn't matter. As long as the turnip people survive to reproduce while everyone else in their niche die of hunger, then they are the heirs of that niche forever. If the next selection event is a turnip beetle, it will be some members of the turnip clan who liked to supplement their turnips with barley who survive - not someone from outside the clan (because they are all dead). Again it makes no difference at all whether the barley people know about crop rotation or soil aeration, nutrition, biology, etc. All that matters is that they had the barley when the turnips went south. If they have it because they believe that Odin commands it, then that will be the adaptation which is passed on to the next selection event.

Yes, it makes no difference why you believe a useful thing, but if you believe things for reasons unrelated to reality then it is unlikely they will be useful. I is astounding that you would argue against such an obvious proposition. I can only conclude you are either a troll or brain damaged.


The suggestion that "evolution must align perception at least roughly with reality" is interesting because it directly contradicts the model of qualia as a solipsistic simulation.

You just made that up - it doesn't follow from anything, either logical or empirical - it's just blather.

This is supposed to be the reason why we don't perceive 'reality' as it is - probabilistic quantum computations.

Who says computations are reality (besides Bruno)?


Computations are real, at least as real as prime numbers. But from the comp assumption, we know (we can prove from the belief in prime numbers) that neither the physical reality nor the psycho-or-theo- logical reality are computations. You attribute me the contrary of what I deduce from comp.

Bruno



The relation between "reality", "computation", and "perception" here are misconceived because only two of the three make sense together any way you slice it. If you have computation and reality, there is no point of perception.

Before you can make that into an interesing argument you would have to show that everything must "have a point", whatever that means...something like aligning with reality?

Brent


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