On 23 Feb 2013, at 17:38, John Mikes wrote:


Bruno Marchal via googlegroups.com
Feb 22 (1 day ago)

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Bruno wrote:
 John,
What do you mean by "there is no ideally correct case"?

I can understand if you sincerely doubt about elementary arithmetic, though. In that case the term research lost his meaning, and we get a completely instrumentalist conception of science. We get the type of relativism used by my opponents i Brussels and Paris, that is philosophers who asserted that truth = power, and who illustrated it by rejecting my thesis while admitting not having seen any flaws. One said to me simply: "we have the money". Those are cynical people who vindicate corruption, simply.

We don't know the truth, but to make sense of research we need some faith in it.

JM: Please. see my reply to Brent.
I would not direct my way of thinking to a necessity of preserving "meaning" to our present concept of research. Your own position about 'science' is not so flattering either. (I do not really understand how all those money/corruption ideas entered this discussion, your opinion seems to be right. )

I don't believe at all in science. I believe only in scientific attitude, and I think it is what you describe often: to admit our ignorance, and use the conditional, in the conclusions. And I believe that such a scientific attidude is domain independent. Some gardener are more scientific than some astronomer. I like to say.




Elementary arithmethic, or not so elementary math are products of human logic (mind?)

In some theory of yours. But I prefer the theory which assumes that elementary arithmetic is universal, and then I explain the human mind, and the more general mind of universal machines in terms of number relations, and number discourses about the way they address such relations.



and we LOVE to accept it because it is our own.

That is an assumption. Most of logic are just rules having shape like if A and if B then A & B, ... A logic is just what we agree to tackle a non logical domain, like arithmetic.


You apply a big "IF" to comp, I may apply it to arithmetic.

You can, but do you do that really? Do you write letters to taxes inspector to tell them that you don't believe in the way they make addition and subtraction? If we have to start from what the majority of us doubt the less, and all scientists agree that 2 is prime, etc. When we discussed this, you told me that 17 might be used for another number, and my reply was that 2 is by definition the successor of the successor of zero. Changing definitions never change a fact.



If we claim "FAITH" in an assumed truth, we religiously accept it and it may interfere with progress.
You also stated your agnosticism, well, apply it!

I do apply it. That is why I do put my assumption on the table. All of them, including arithmetic. Without arithmetic there is no QM, no chemistry, no physics, no computer science, so when you say that you doubt arithmetic, I have no problem, but I will still point on invalid critics on arithmetic. I remain quite open to a valid critics against it, but I don't see it. The computer that you are using to send post is entirely based on elementary arithmetical truth. I doubt that you can explain the simple fact that we are discussing through electronic mails without using arithmetic. So to be sincere on this, I doubt that you doubt arithmetic. But I insist, I am open to we might be wrong, and that is why I do not present arithmetic as something true, but only as the starting theory. I am open to refutation and better theory, but I would lie to myself if I pretend to have seen even the shadow of one.

Bruno





John M


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