On 23 Feb 2013, at 17:38, John Mikes wrote:

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Bruno Marchal via googlegroups.com Feb 22 (1 day ago) to everything-list Bruno wrote: John, What do you mean by "there is no ideally correct case"?I can understand if you sincerely doubt about elementary arithmetic,though. In that case the term research lost his meaning, and we geta completely instrumentalist conception of science. We get the typeof relativism used by my opponents i Brussels and Paris, that isphilosophers who asserted that truth = power, and who illustrated itby rejecting my thesis while admitting not having seen any flaws.One said to me simply: "we have the money". Those are cynical peoplewho vindicate corruption, simply.We don't know the truth, but to make sense of research we need somefaith in it.JM: Please. see my reply to Brent.I would not direct my way of thinking to a necessity of preserving"meaning" to our present concept of research. Your own positionabout 'science' is not so flattering either. (I do not reallyunderstand how all those money/corruption ideas entered thisdiscussion, your opinion seems to be right. )

`I don't believe at all in science. I believe only in scientific`

`attitude, and I think it is what you describe often: to admit our`

`ignorance, and use the conditional, in the conclusions.`

`And I believe that such a scientific attidude is domain independent.`

`Some gardener are more scientific than some astronomer. I like to say.`

Elementary arithmethic, or not so elementary math are products ofhuman logic (mind?)

`In some theory of yours. But I prefer the theory which assumes that`

`elementary arithmetic is universal, and then I explain the human mind,`

`and the more general mind of universal machines in terms of number`

`relations, and number discourses about the way they address such`

`relations.`

and we LOVE to accept it because it is our own.

`That is an assumption. Most of logic are just rules having shape like`

`if A and if B then A & B, ...`

`A logic is just what we agree to tackle a non logical domain, like`

`arithmetic.`

You apply a big "IF" to comp, I may apply it to arithmetic.

`You can, but do you do that really? Do you write letters to taxes`

`inspector to tell them that you don't believe in the way they make`

`addition and subtraction?`

`If we have to start from what the majority of us doubt the less, and`

`all scientists agree that 2 is prime, etc.`

`When we discussed this, you told me that 17 might be used for another`

`number, and my reply was that 2 is by definition the successor of the`

`successor of zero. Changing definitions never change a fact.`

If we claim "FAITH" in an assumed truth, we religiously accept itand it may interfere with progress.You also stated your agnosticism, well, apply it!

`I do apply it. That is why I do put my assumption on the table. All of`

`them, including arithmetic. Without arithmetic there is no QM, no`

`chemistry, no physics, no computer science, so when you say that you`

`doubt arithmetic, I have no problem, but I will still point on invalid`

`critics on arithmetic. I remain quite open to a valid critics against`

`it, but I don't see it. The computer that you are using to send post`

`is entirely based on elementary arithmetical truth. I doubt that you`

`can explain the simple fact that we are discussing through electronic`

`mails without using arithmetic. So to be sincere on this, I doubt`

`that you doubt arithmetic. But I insist, I am open to we might be`

`wrong, and that is why I do not present arithmetic as something true,`

`but only as the starting theory. I am open to refutation and better`

`theory, but I would lie to myself if I pretend to have seen even the`

`shadow of one.`

Bruno

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