Bruno you wrote (among a big HOOPLA of indentations galore, an art to measure each one into a proper participant):
*"...Explain us what is an electrical reaction in a brain without using > 2+2=4...."* > *Bruno "* > Explain, why 2+2=4 - without (human?) quantizing - even without using dots or marks and 'counting' them. Numbers? a joke. "Because you said so?" How did it arise? *What is 'counting'?* assigning SOMEHOW a 'heap' to a sign you invented? How 'bout another logic, another vision? (Zarathustran?) Go back and back and back in your presumptions/assumptions into more-and-more generalizations and you will find the human image you substitute for Nature (call it reality, existence, The World, - or Whatever (Everything). The "model" we have about our up-to-date inventory of knowables in this - what? John M On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 23 Feb 2013, at 00:06, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:54:05 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >> >> What to you think with, your elbow? >>>> >>> >>> > my point was that you have a double standard about which brain >>> activities represent nothing but evolutionary driven illusions >>> >> >> Illusions? Evolutionary drive is what made you the man you are today. And >> interpreting a 1D signal from the eye as 3D space is as valid a >> interpretation as any other, and apparently Evolution has determined that >> particular interpretation gets the most genes into the next generation. >> Thus you are good at 3D visualization because your ancestors were good at >> it too. You come from a long line of winners, most animals never manage to >> reproduce but every single one of your ancestors did. >> > > A successful evolutionary outcome doesn't have anything to do with the > veracity of the content of a signal. If someone has a delusion that their > ancestors are sacred turnip people and it causes them to plant turnips and > survive a famine, that doesn't mean that their belief is not a delusion. > There seems to be this theme with your positions which fanatically > exaggerates the importance of winning, and how winning justifies whatever > distortions of the truth are required...but then when it comes to science > and math, there seems to be a different standard. > > >> > and which ones represent an independent and absolute truth. >>> >> >> Huh? 2+2=4 is as close to a absolute truth as I can think of, what double >> standard are you talking about? >> > > What's 2+2=4 other than an electrical reaction in your brain? > > > Explain us what is an electrical reaction in a brain without using 2+2=4. > > Bruno > > > > > >> Evolution is like history, it could have been different, a very small >> change in the distant past could cause gargantuan changes in the present, >> is that what you mean? >> > > No, I don't know why you're going over evolution101 with me. > > >> >> > A signal is a sign. >>> >> >> I can't argue with that. >> >> > A sign means that it has to be interpreted by someone or some thing. >>> >> >> Yes and in this case the brain is doing the interpretation, and >> electronic cochlear implants can create a sequence of impulses that the >> brain interprets as sound, and we're well on the way of doing the same >> thing with 3D vision. >> > > We don't really know that the brain is doing an interpretation, so much as > a complex notification. The interpretation may not be local to the brain, > but to the lifetime of the personal experience associated with the brain. > Why would one part of the brain receive and encode information from the > outside world only for another part of the brain to decode the same > information for some artificial inner world? If the brain can interpret the > outside world as code, surely it would remain as code - invisible, > intangible, precisely transmitted information states. > > >> >> > Our experience of 3D images is not useful to the brain in any way. >>> >> >> The 3D visualization of space would be very useful indeed if it's the >> most efficient way to figure out how to jump out of the way when a saber >> toothed tiger lunges at you on the African savanna. >> > > But it could not be any more efficient than no presentation at all. > Absolutely, clearly, and unarguably: not possible. > > >> >> > The electronic sequences need not be interpreted at all because they >>> are already neurological signals. >>> >> >> That statement is nuts. To a animal without genes for interpretation a >> neurological signal is just a neurological signal and there would be no >> reason to move when a predator starts to run at it >> > > The reason would be the that they received a neurological to move - just > like a computer does. IF TIGER = 1 THEN RUN. You really are not seeing that > your legs are cut off here. It reminds me of the limbless knight in Holy > Grail. You can't understand what I am talking about if you are unwilling or > unable to imagine thought experiments in which the existence of > consciousness *is not an option*. Once you can do that, you can see that > what makes sense about consciousness in hindsight, makes absolutely no > sense evolutionarily. Evolution is not going to invent geometry to make > data look pretty if pretty is meaningless. The data is all you need. Just > like a computer doesn't need to draw triangles in a DIMM to render images > for us to see. > > >> and the genes of that stupid animal would not make it into the next >> generation; but a animal with genes for constructing a 3D world would not >> only know to run but know the direction to run, the magnitude of course is >> as fast as you can. >> > > That logic is unfalsifiable just-so fallacy. If I asked why do we have > teleportation on demand? You could answer "because animals with genes for > magical powers would have many advantages over those who couldn't". Don't > you see that you aren't questioning consciousness? You're just taking it > for granted: There is consciousness, therefore it must have evolved. If it > evolved it must have an evolutionary purpose. But consciousness violates > conventional physics far more egregiously than magic. Telekinesis, > precognition, levitation, time travel, invisibility...these are easy to > justify through physics. Consciousness though, has no conceivable mechanism > or justification in evolution - not even a hint of a possibility. > > >> >> >>> > If all that is needed is math, then why have anything but data in the >>> brain? >>> >> >> Because you need machinery to process that data. >> > > Yes, but why does the machinery need to see the data as colors and shapes, > or feel it as an itch? This is what you are not explaining - the gap > between data and experience of some kind. > > >> >> > Why have geometry when you can have glorious certain digital number >>> sequences? >>> >> >> Because looked at with the lens of complex numbers that digital number >> sequence produces the qualia of geometry. Probably. >> > > Why would it though? For what purpose? What about how? What might be the > step by step recipe by which a number sequence produces a geometric qualia > of a shape? > > >> >> > Are you talking about ion channels opening, or neurotransmitters being >>> secreted >>> >> >> When you talk about a car moving are you talking about the wheels turning >> or the axle spinning? >> > > Then you aren't talking about a wire between eyes and brain, you are > talking about the whole head. > > >> >> > What's this about being adjectives though? >>> >> >> You are the way matter behaves when it is organized in a Craigweinbergian >> way. >> > > I don't disagree, but try this: My body is the way matter behaves when it > is reflecting/representing a Craigweinbergian time. > > >> >> > Geometry is a zombie. [...] Geometry cannot be derived from math alone, >>> and neither can color, sound, touch, thought, or feeling. >>> >> >> It must be grand being a "hard problem" theorist because it's the easiest >> job in the world bar none, no matter how smart something is you just say >> "yeah but it's not conscious" and there is no way anybody can prove you >> wrong. >> > > That's the third time you've said that. I guess you have adopted it as > your new 'cannot understand ASCII text 'free will' mantra. You might > consider that if you can't prove the statement wrong that there is just the > tiniest possibility that it could be because it's true. > > >> >> >>> >> Behavior is the only thing that determines success in life, and it >>>> doesn't matter if "success" means making money or making friends or >>>> avoiding predators or catching prey; >>>> >>> >>> > Those things only mean success if you have meaning to begin with. >>> >> >> Evolution has always had a very clear idea what success means, getting >> genes into the next generation; with humans Evolution has determined that >> the best way to do that is with a large brain because that produces >> intelligence. >> > > Eh, evolution if the vehicle is really only of marginal utility to > non-scientists. Within the experience of the individual, the qualia of > significance is even more of a driving force for a person than survival. > > >> > the most valuable thing of all, surely, is sense itself. >>> >> >> To you, to me too, but not to Evolution; and yet Evolution has produced >> consciousness at least once and probably many billions of times; therefore >> the conclusion is unavoidable, consciousness MUST be a byproduct of >> something that IS valuable to Evolution. >> > > Only if you assume that evolution is possible without consciousness in the > first place, in which case there could not possibly be an opportunity for > consciousness to appear. You are right about evolution not valuing sense > though, that's because chance and teleonomy are driven by consequence - the > flip side of choice/teleology. > > >> > let's say that we have an AI which will pass the Turing Test >> >> >> Then I'd say the AI is certainly intelligent and I would estimate that >> the probability it is also conscious is the same probability that you are >> conscious, and that is pretty high. >> >> > and we have an video simulator as well which has digitized every >>> photograph and film of John Wayne and can produce CGI movies that pass the >>> Scorcese Test. Is the whole system now John Wayne? >>> >> >> If it behaves in exactly the same way that John Wayne would have behaved >> (and not one of John Wayne's characters) in those circumstances then yes, >> that would be John Wayne because it would be matter behaving in a >> Johnwayneian way. However as a practical matter I have no idea how you >> could determine that is what John Wayne would have done, so the Scorcese >> Test is of little use. >> > > But you couldn't determine that it is not what John Wayne would do or say > either. Regardless, you are saying that you could bring John Wayne back > from the dead just by doing a perfect impersonation of him. If you don't > see why that isn't realistic, then I just have to accept that you live in a > different world from me entirely. John Wayne is dead. It doesn't matter if > your puppet or video simulation is uncanny beyond all scrutiny. Your view > is impossibly naive. It is stating essentially that pretending is > impossible. A sufficiently convincing liar can only be telling the truth. > >> >> > if he starts saying how he's been resurrected by a computer and now >>> lives again in movies? Is he telling the truth? >>> >> >> When he says he's been resurrected he is telling the truth, when he says >> he is again living in the movies he is not, John Waybe is not and has never >> lived in the movies. >> > > But maybe he does now, since you can talk to him and he responds from > inside a movie. When you log into his movie in the middle of the night, > you'll see and hear him snoring in John Wayne's voice on his bed in some > old West ranch house. > > >> >>> >>> Why didn't I become a living being by myself? >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> Because you lack the ability. >>>> >>> >>> > How do you know though? >>> >> >> Because I strongly suspect that you are not God. >> > > So you don't know. > > >> >> > I don't have a dog in this fight at all. >>> >> >> I flat out do not believe that. No sentient being would advance the >> incoherent and astonishingly weak arguments that you have unless they >> passionately wished for them to be true. >> > > Not at all. I don't care what happens to be true, I'm just interested in > understanding what it is that's true in the big picture. > > >> >> > computer simulations and services are so universally empty and >>> non-sentient. >>> >> >> It must be grand being a "hard problem" theorist because it's the easiest >> job in the world bar none, no matter how smart something is you just say >> "yeah but it's not conscious" and there is no way anybody can prove you >> wrong. >> > > I was right, I see, about your new mantra. Each time you use it I know > it's because you have no argument. You know that no computer product has > ever been anything but impersonal, but you adopt this sophistry and > promissory computationalism because it's what you desperately want to > believe. Super computer man will triumph over puny humans!! Just you wait > and see!!! > > Craig > > >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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