Bruno, I appreciate your effort to reply to my silly questions.
I accept your positions, nothing 'new' or 'surprising' in them now.
Yet I raised one little suspicion in

*"...How did number arise? We don't know that, but we can show that if we
don't assume them, or equivalent (basically anything Turing Universal),
then we cannot derive them..."*
*
*
of circularity: we have to assume them to be able to derive them.
If not, not.
BTW I feel free to disagree with your "just assumed" argument WITHOUT being
obliged to produce a (better?) counter-theory.

Then again:
*"...Numbers have nothing to do with sign. Signs are human tools to talk
about them..."*
*
*
Talk about WHAT? if they are NOT quantizing factors, NOT representing
"signs", how could you *IDENTIFY* the  *t e r m : NUMBER?  * (not just by
another word of course).
It seems your mental base builds ON numbers (whatever they may be) - not on
qualia (musical complexity, emotions, feelings, etc. that do not spring
from 'numbers').

Sorry about the last sentence (conclusion of the previous passage) in which
I used "Nature" instead of "world" "existence" or whatever.
The reductionistic part of the totality to which we assign all we think
about.

JM


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:24 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> John,
>
> On 24 Feb 2013, at 21:07, John Mikes wrote:
>
> Bruno you wrote (among a big HOOPLA of indentations galore, an art to
> measure each one into a proper participant):
>
> *"...Explain us what is an electrical reaction in a brain without using
>> 2+2=4...."*
>>  *Bruno "*
>>
>
> Explain, why 2+2=4 - without (human?) quantizing - even without using dots
> or marks and 'counting' them. Numbers? a joke.
>  "Because you said so?"  How did it arise?
>
>
> I assume them. It is part of the card I put on the table. Feel free to
> develop another theory.
>
> How did number arise? We don't know that, but we can show that if we don't
> assume them, or equivalent (basically anything Turing Universal), then we
> cannot derive them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *What is 'counting'?* assigning SOMEHOW a 'heap' to a sign you invented?
>
>
> Numbers have nothing to do with sign. Signs are human tools to talk about
> them. Numbers status is independent of the signs used to refer to them, a
> bit like galaxies in the physical universe are usually supposed to be
> independent of human telescope.
>
>
>
>
> How 'bout another logic, another vision? (Zarathustran?)
>
>
> How could I understand what you mean by "another logic" or "another
> vision" without using the intuition of numbers?
> This just make no sense for me.
> Also numbers have nothing to do with logic. Again, logic is a mental tool,
> and formal logics presuppose our understanding of numbers. Then
> computationalism derived eight important different logics that the numbers
> already develop by themselves to understand themselves, so here you have
> your another logics. Numbers agree with you, somehow. But you have to
> recognize them to be able to listen to them, and indeed go farer than the
> human views.
>
>
>
>
> Go back and back and back in your presumptions/assumptions into
> more-and-more generalizations and you will find the human image you
> substitute for  Nature (call it reality, existence, The World, - or
> Whatever (Everything).
>
>
> I do not assume Nature.
> The distinction between nature and human is a human artifice.
> More generally, the distinction between nature and numbers is a number
> artifice. It is an illusion, in the comp theory, even if it is an important
> lawful one, from the numbers and/or from the human points of view.
>
>
>
> The "model" we have about our up-to-date inventory of knowables in this -
> what?
>
>
> I don't understand this sentence.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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