On 27 Feb 2013, at 00:01, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/26/2013 2:41 PM, John Mikes wrote:
Brent:
you jumped into 'counting'. What would that be without numbers?

It's a one-to-one relation between objects. If you invent a special set of tokens (1, 2, 3) that everybody agrees on (i.e. a part of language) to use in the one-to-one relation then those are numbers. But I wasn't pretending to do without numbers; I was pointing out how they derived from experience - they were not just "assumed".

The fact that we see the world as composed of discrete objects (instead of wave functions or quantum fields or something else) might be an accident of the development of this universe - or it might be a necessary consequence of something about universes. I was just asking whether Bruno's comp had any bearing on that question.

It certainly has, but it is difficult, because we can't throw out the fact that some very special programs, or collection of programs, win the "measure battle" for the first person indeterminacy problem.

As long as physics is not derived from arithmetic, we can't answer to that question. I will not speculate, as people could confuse what is already derived and what is plausible, given the empirical facts and what we already know in computer science. Cluster of different sort of multiverses remain possible, especially if we derive less than QM from comp. Comp leads to a criterium to distinguish geographical truth from physical truth, but we have to progress a lot to be able to apply it.

Bruno



Brent


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 3:40 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 2/26/2013 1:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

How did number arise? We don't know that, but we can show that if we don't assume them, or equivalent (basically anything Turing Universal), then we cannot derive them.

I'm not sure how you mean that? We know that we experience individual objects and so we can count them by putting them in one- to-one relation with fingers or notches or marks. So what are you calling an "assumption" in this?

Brent
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