On 3/1/2013 8:17 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


On Friday, March 1, 2013 10:58:34 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

    On 3/1/2013 7:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

        The point of this thread was to show that even geometry is not at all
        indicated from math or computation, and derives solely from sensory
        experiences of shapes. Can you dispute this?

        Sure. Can you prove it?


    Prove what, that geometry is related to shapes?


        Computers prove theorems in geometry.


    But they don't need geometry to do it.

        As Hilbert said geometry could as well be about tables, chairs, and 
beer steins
        as points, lines, and intersections.


    It could be, but it isn't. That's my point.

    Then you don't have a point.  Geometry is nothing more than the axioms and 
theorems
    of geometry.

    Geometry could be about Boolean arithmetic and have no forms at all - which 
is
    obviously the case within a computer which is designed to have no capacity 
to
    render shapes that it can see.

    Most computers aren't provided with vision or the ability to manipulate 
objects in
    3-space.  Which is why I use Mars rovers as examples of intelligent, and 
possibly
    conscious, machines. They certainly understand somethings about geometry 
and they
    can see shapes.  That's how they avoid running into big rocks.


You could run the same software the Rover uses in a virtual environment which has no 3-space. If you plugged the Rover's inputs into a random number generator instead of a camera, it would still try to avoid certain kinds of expected patterns in the data, even though there is absolutely no connection to shapes, rocks, geometry, or understanding.

All that shows is that the camera is part of the rover's understanding. If we fed false signals into your optic nerve you'd run into things too.

There's absolutely no connection between your assertions and any facts.

Brent

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