On 3/1/2013 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 01 Mar 2013, at 16:28, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/1/2013 7:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 28 Feb 2013, at 20:29, meekerdb wrote:

On 2/28/2013 10:59 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 2/28/2013 10:33 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com <mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com>> wrote:

        >> It is a basic law of logic that if X is not Y and X is not not Y 
then X
        is gibberish,


    > X = alcohol   Y = poison.
    becomes "alcohol is not poison and alcohol isn't not poison"


Exactly, and 2 negatives, like "isn't not" cancel each other out so you get "alcohol is not a poison and alcohol is a poison" which is gibberish just like I said.

Alcohol both is and isn't a poison, duh! It is the quantity that makes the difference. Are you too coarse to notice that there are distinctions in the real world that are not subject to the naive representation of Aristotelian syllogisms.

    > If there were no free will then nobody could choose to assert anything,
    abandon anything, or speak anything other than gibberish.


Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII symbols "free will" mean.

And we can safely assume that all text that is emitted from the email johnkcl...@gmail.com is only accidentally meaningful, aka gibberish as well, as it's referents where not chosen by a conscious act.

I think we're safe in assuming that they are emitted by a process that is either random or deterministic.

It could also be partially random and partially deterministic.

Sure.  It's hard to even define what might be meant by "completely" random.

Algorithmic incompressability (Chaitin, Martin Loef, Solovay ...) make good attempts. This makes sense with Church's thesis. I guess you know that. Sequences algorithmically incompressible contains maximal information, but no way at all to decode it.

But those always implicitly assume infinite sequences.


I do have have a notion of "completely random" though, I define it by "completely arbitrary".
My favorite completely arbitrary sequence is 0000000000000000000... (only 
zeroes).
But to make this arbitrariness precise you need "actual infinities", and thus Set Theory, even enriched one by some strong axioms.

There are also definitions by a collection of statistical test of normality. In that case PI is comepletely random, apparently. I think it is still an open problem to prove that, but it has been proved for Champerknow number Cn, if I remember well. Cn = 0, 1234567891011121314151617.... It is normal (pun intended) as it contains all arbitrary sequences of digits.

I thought Karl Popper invented that, except in binary, 
0100100111000100010110001...

Brent




Things are only random in the sense of not being strictly deterministic.

In most of the cases. It is easy to build a sequence of 0 and 1 which is partially deterministic, and partially non deterministic (in different senses).

Bruno



http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/%7Emarchal/>



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