Craig:

 

The mistake you make is clearly stated in your words:

 

“…doesn’t mean that they communicated with judgment.”

 

You are anthropomorphizing.  The value is no more nor no 

less than the action taken upon signal acceptance.

 

wrb

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig Weinberg
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:27 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

 



On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:07:00 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote:

The fact that a machine can act in a discriminatory based 

upon some signal (sign, information) input is demonstration 

of value judgment.


Only in our eyes, not in its own eyes. It's like telling a kid to say some
insult to someone in another language. The fact they are able to carry out
your instruction doesn't mean that they communicated with judgment.
 

 

Just as there is no *in* in a machine, so to there is no *in* 

in a biological organism; they both, machine and organism, 


But there is an 'in' with respect to the experience of an organism - only
because we know it first hand. There would seem to be no reason why a
machine couldn't have a similar 'in', but it actually seems that their
nature indicates they do not. I take the extra step and hypothesize exactly
why that is - because experience is not generated out of the bodies
associated with them, but rather the bodies are simply a public view of one
aspect of the experience. If you build a machine, you are assembling bodies
to relate to each other, as external forms, so that no interiority 'emerges'
from the gaps between them.
 

are forms that treat other forms in certain proscribed ways.

 

You cannot demonstrate otherwise.


Sure I can. Feelings, colors, personalities, intentions, historical
zeitgeists...these are not forms relating to forms.

Craig
 

 

wrb

 

From: everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
[mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> ] On Behalf Of Craig
Weinberg
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:37 AM
To: everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> 
Subject: Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information

 



On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:53:31 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote:

Let´s say that what we call "information" is an extended form of sensory
input. What makes this input "information" is the usability of this input
for reducing the internal entropy of the receiver or increase the internal
order. The receiver can be a machine, a cell, a person or a society for
example. If the input do not produce this effect in the receiver, then that
input is not information.


The increase of internal order of the receiver is a symptom of an experience
of being informed but they are not the same thing. It's not really even
relevant in most cases. I would not call it an extended form of sensory
input, but a reduction of sensory experience. Input is not a physical
reality, it is a conceptual label.

Consider Blindsight:

I hold up two fingers and ask how many fingers? 

"I don't know.'

Guess

'two'.

This example tells us about information without tying it to decreased
entropy. My two fingers are a form. I am putting them into that form, so the
process of my presenting my fingers is a formation of a sign. 

The sign is not information at this point. It means something different to
an ant or a frog than it does to a person looking at it. If you can't see,
there is no formation there at all unless you can collide with my fingers.

When the patient responds that they don't know how many fingers, it is
because they personally have no experience of seeing it. They are not being
informed personally by the form of my fingers in front of their face because
they have blindsight.

When they guess correctly, they still have not been informed. Only we know
that the information is correct. At this point you could say that there is
some decrease in information entropy of the receiver as far as we are
concerned, but in fact, for the receiver themselves, they have not increased
any internal order.

A machine has blindsight about everything. They can be queried and produce
valid responses to inform us, but they are never informed themselves. There
is no 'in' in a machine, it is an organization of forms which treat other
forms in a proscribed way. Forms are copied, transformed, and presented in a
context that it has no experience of. My computer sees nothing that I see on
this screen. It reads nothing that I type here. It doesn't know what the
Everything List is - not even Google knows what it is - only that the string
of characters in the name is to be associated with an ip address.

Craig

 

2013/3/2 William R. Buckley <bill.b...@gmail.com>


>Thinking about how information content of a message

Big mistake.  Information is never contained with but
exactly one exception, an envelope.

I made this point with Jesper Hoffmeyer regarding a
statement in his book Biosemiotics, that information
is represented but not contained in that representation.
That marks of chalk upon slate may be taken to represent
information at a meta level above the reality of streaks
of a deformed amorphous solid has nothing to do with
the information represented by that deformation, nor the
increase of entropy associated with the greater disorder
obtained from that deformation; these are but three of
the *informations* to be found upon review of those
streaks.  Entropy is how nature sees information (not
yet an established fact but I think the tea leaves read
clear enough) but that has (presumably) nothing to do
with how intelligent individuals see information, or
as von Uexküll called such phenomena, signs.

Most definitely the information is not to be found
within the material of its expression, its representation.
Rather, the information is already to be found within the
interpreter.

That which is information is so by virtue of the acceptor
of that information; else, it is noise.

And, write the information on a piece of paper and seal
the paper within an envelope and you may justifiably
claim that the information is contained; else, you are
deluding yourself.


>has an inversely proportionate relationship with the
>capacity of sender and receiver to synchronize with
>each other.
>

....<snip>

wrb




 
 

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