On 05 Mar 2013, at 22:28, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/5/2013 6:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Why would anyone want to make decisions that were not determined by their learning and memories and values.

Indeed. But even more when they feel such value as being universal or close to universal.

But based on your experience with salvia, Bruno, you seem to think there is a "you" which is independent of those things.

Not just salvia. The 8 hypostases describes already a "you" (with 8 views), which are more (semantically) and less (bodily or syntactically) than memory. The value are not necessarily part of the memory (as opposed to their instantiations). Salvia can help to illustrate this in a vivid way, by an hallucination of remembering having been that kind of things for all time.

It is comparable to the realization that you don't die when you stop doing something which was part of what you take as an important personality trait, like when people succeed in stopping tobacco. They can remind how they felt and were before taking tobacco, for example.

But you do die a little when you stop doing something significant to you. I raced motorcycles for many years but now at age 73 I have been retired for a couple of years. My knees don't work so well. I'm not competitive at tennis either. And I do feel diminished having stopped doing these things.

This is not dying in the usual sense. It might be like feeling diminished or sick, but that is not dead. Comatose patients are not dead, even if they are quite handicapped.

I have heard about a kids who lost his two legs, two arms and became blind, after the explosion of the bomb he was building following instructions that he found on the net. May be in this case we can think that being dead would have been better than surviving, but he is still considered as alive, by all concerned people.

Isn't it more likely that the drug simply makes your narrative thoughts less able than usual to trace their sources? So it is like the Poincare' effect writ large?

I am not sure. Perhaps. If you make that idea more precise, I might concur. Is it consistent with what I just say here?

I think it is. Just as Poincare' had a proof spring into his mind we commonly have value judgement spring into mind. In some cases we can trace them back to an experience or what out parents told us; but generally we can't. I can see that drugs might inhibit that tracing back and make it seem that we are who we are independent of any history.




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