On 3/7/2013 10:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Friday, March 8, 2013, Stephen P. King wrote:

    On 3/7/2013 8:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

        On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:59:50 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:
        By the definition I gave above a stone does not choose to
        roll down the hill because it does not consider each option
        in order to decide which one to do.

    Why doesn't it choose when and which direction to roll? A
    deterministic universe means that there is no such thing as
    'considering each option' - there are no options, only things
    happening because they must happen. They have no choice, there is
    no choice, the lack of choice is the defining feature of a
    deterministic world. You are saying that this is the world that
    we live in and that we are the stone, except that for some reason
    we have this delusional interactive narrative in which we could
    not stand being still any longer and decided to push ourselves
    down the hill.

        From my studies of the math of classical determinism, the
    subsequent 'behavior' of the stone follows strictly in a
    one-to-one and onto fashion from the prior state of the stone.
    There are no 'multiple choices' of the stone, thus no room at all
    for "choice". Thankfully we know that classical determinism is a
    delusion that some, for their own reasons, cling to.

Yes, we know that classical determinism is wrong, but it is not logically inconsistent with consciousness.

I must disagree. It is baked into the topology of classical mechanics that a system cannot semantically act upon itself. There is no way to define intentionality in classical physics. This is what Bruno proves with his argument.

It is also not logically inconsistent with choice and free will, unless you define these terms as inconsistent with determinism, in which case in a deterministic world we would have to create new words meaning pseudo-choice and pseudo-free will to avoid misunderstanding, and then go about our business as usual with this minor change to the language.

    So you say...



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