On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:55:31 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote:
>
> The falling tree makes sound, the wind make sound, the … makes sound 
>
regardless of your presence (or the presence of others) to hear that sound.
>

Regardless of my presence, of course, but to make sound, you need an ear 
and a medium which vibrates that ear. If you take the atmosphere away, then 
of course the falling tree could not make a sound to anyone. For the same 
reason, if you take all of the ears away, then there can be no such thing 
as sound.
 

>  
>
> To argue anything else is utter nonsense.
>
To the contrary. To assume that physics can simply 'exist' outside of a 
context of detection and participation is a statement of religious faith. 
We have never experienced an unexperienced world, so it would be 
unscientific to presume such a thing. This has nothing to do with human 
experience, its ontology.

Craig
 

>  
>
> wrb
>
>  
>
> *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> [mailto:
> everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 7:34 PM
> *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information
>
>  
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:52:32 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote:
>
> I do not hold that the acceptor must exist, for then I 
>
> am making a value judgment, and I have already scolded 
>
> Craig for the same thing.
>
>  
>
> Think of it this way.  A volume of gas has a measure of 
>
> entropy.  This means that the molecules are found in 
>
>
> found by what?
>  
>
> a specific sequence of microstates, and those microstates 
>
> constitute an information state of the molecules.  
>
>
> Who is it constituted to though? Empty space? The molecules as a group? 
> Each molecule? What is validating that these molecules exist in some way - 
> that there is a such thing as a microstate which can be detected in some 
> way by something... and what is detection? How does it work?
>
> When these things are taken as axiomatic, then we are just reiterating 
> those axioms when we claim that no acceptor must exist. In my 
> understanding, exist and acceptor are the same thing.
>
>  
>
> Alter 
>
> that microstate sequence (as by adding or removing 
>
> entropy) and the description of the microstate sequence 
>
> changes correspondingly; entropy is information.
>
>
> Only if something can detect their own description of the microstate as 
> having changed. We cannot assume that there is any change at all if nothing 
> can possibly detect it. For example, if I take make a movie of ice cubes 
> melting in a glass, even though that is a case of increasing thermodynamic 
> entropy, we will see a lower cost of video compression in a movie of the 
> glass after the ice has melted completely. In that case the image 
> description can be made to follow either increasing or decreasing 
> information entropy depending on whether you play the movie forward and 
> backward. There is no link between microstate thermodynamic entropy and 
> optical description information entropy.
>
> Craig
>
>  
>
> Acceptors and signals; contexts and signs; …
>
>  
>
> wrb
>
>  
>
> *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] *On 
> Behalf Of *John Mikes
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:13 PM
> *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information
>
>  
>
> Dear Bil B. you probably have thought in these lines during similar long 
> periods as I did. It was ~2 decades ago when I defined 
>
> i n f o r m a t i o n  as something with (at least) 2 ends: 
>
> 1. the notion (in whatever format it shows up)  - and
>
> 2. the acceptor (adjusting the notion in whatever context it can be 
>
>     perceived - appercipiated (adjusted>). 
>
> I have no idea how to make a connection between information (anyway how 
> one defines it) and the (inner?) disorder level of anything (entropy?). I 
> dislike this thermodynamic term alltogether. 
>
>  
>
> Later on I tried to refine my wording into:
>
> RELATIONS and the capability of recognizing them. That moved away from a 
> 'human(?)' framework. E. g. I called the 'closeness of a '(+)' charge to a 
> '(-)' potential an information so it came close to SOME consciousness (=(?) 
> *response to relations*), no matter in what kind of domain. 
>
>  
>
> Do you feel some merit to my thinking?
>
>  
>
> John Mikes
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 2:06 AM, William R. Buckley <bill.b...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
> There is information (I take information to be a
> manifestation of entropy) and it is always represented
> in the form of a pattern (a distribution) of the units
> of mass/energy of which the Universe is composed.  I
> think that semiotic signs are simply specific bits
> of information; I will use the terms synonymously.
>
> Information has meaning only within context.  For many
> people, context is taken to mean one piece of information
> as compared to another piece of information.  I do not
> take this meaning of context when I discuss semiotics.
> Instead, I take semiotic context to be the acceptor of
> the information.  Hence, all meaning resides a priori
> within information acceptors.
>
> What you know you have always known; the sign merely
> serves to bring that knowledge to your conscious mind.
>
> That you may have intention and so comport your delivery
> of information to another acceptor has not bearing upon
> the subsequent acceptance or rejection of that information
> by the target acceptor.  Acceptance or rejection of
> information is determined solely by the accepting or
> rejecting context (acceptor).
>
> Your mere presence sends information regardless of some
> conscious intent.  Indeed, your absence does equally
> deliver information, for the target acceptor will see
> a definite difference in available information sources
> whether you are present or not.
>
> Consider a line worker in a bean processing plant where
> the task is to cull *bad* dried beans from *good* dried
> beans as they go by on a conveyor belt; the *bad* beans
> are removed by hand, so the line worker is constantly
> looking for *bad* beans while constantly being aware
> of the fact that not many of the beans are *bad*.  The
> consciousness is aware of both that which is present
> and that which is not present.
>
> Further, what any information that you emit means to
> you is irrelevant to the meaning that another may take
> for that information.  Indeed, it is via reliance upon
> -Cultural Norms- that your point regarding Morse Code
> becomes relevant.  It is perfectly reasonable for an
> ornery person to simply reject such norms and act
> otherwise; your expectation originates in you, not
> the targets of information you broadcast.
>
> >>The truth of your statement is no reply to my claim,
> >>that how another receiver of signs responds is
> >>irrelevant to your knowledge, save the one case of
> >>conveyance of knowledge between semiotic units;
> >>where you intend for knowledge to be conveyed.  In
> >>that case, it is behooving of the sender to ensure
> >>that the receiver can receive and understand the
> >>message. 
> >
> >I'm not sure what you are bringing up here, but I
> >would say that my point is that all messages have
> >multiple levels of reception, perhaps as many levels
> >as their are receivers in the universe. At the same
> >time, if we are assuming human senders and receivers
> >and a content range which is highly normative and
> >practical (i.e. Morse code alphabet rather than
> >emoticons, inside jokes, etc), then the information
> >entropy is reduced dramatically.
> >
> >Maybe you can give me an example of that you mean
> >by the irrelevance of the receiver's knowledge. Does
> >that include the expectation of the possibility of
> >there being a receiver?
> > 
> >>In all other cases, the recipient response is
> >>irrelevant; all values and measures originate in
> >>the sender of the message.
> >
> >I would tend to agree with that, although the
> >expectation of the recipient response informs the
> >motives, values, and measures of the sender -
> >otherwise there would be no message being sent.
> >
> > 
> >>The receiver of transmitted information is
> >>irrelevant to the mechanics of that transmission.
> >
> >I'm not sure what you mean. Again, maybe an example
> >would help. We expect that human audiences can see,
> >so we have TV screens to provide optical stimulation.
> >If we didn't have eyes, there would be no mechanism
> >of TV.
> >
>
> The word should have been *reception* - receipt of
> information (acceptance of a sign) is a function of
> the value that the acceptor puts on that sign.  That
> value is most certainly not tied to the delivery
> mechanism, even if some delivery mechanisms are
> preferred over others.
>
> What matters to information acceptance is disposition
> of the acceptor to that acceptance.  If the acceptor
> does not *like* the sign, it will reject the sign; of
> course, this means that all signs are accepted just
> long enough to decide if they are sufficiently meaningful
> or not; if so, they are accepted else they are rejected.
>
> >Craig
> >
> >>wrb
> >
>
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