On 08/03/2013, at 2:43 AM, "Stephen P. King" <stephe...@charter.net> wrote:

>> Yes, we know that classical determinism is wrong, but it is not logically 
>> inconsistent with consciousness.
>     I must disagree. It is baked into the topology of classical mechanics 
> that a system cannot semantically act upon itself. There is no way to define 
> intentionality in classical physics. This is what Bruno proves with his 
> argument.

To act on itself, as far as I can understand it, would mean to be uncaused or 
truly random, which is indeed incompatible with determinism. But why should 
that have anything to do with "intentionality"?

>> It is also not logically inconsistent with choice and free will,  unless you 
>> define these terms as inconsistent with determinism, in which case in a 
>> deterministic world we would have to create new words meaning pseudo-choice 
>> and pseudo-free will to avoid misunderstanding, and then go about our 
>> business as usual with this minor change to the language.
>     So you say...

Which part do you disagree with? That people can define free will differently? 
Or that people wouldn't care if they learned that under a particular definition 
they lack free will?

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