On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:53:13PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
> On 04 Mar 2013, at 20:16, meekerdb wrote:
> 
> >On 3/4/2013 4:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> >>
> >>On 03 Mar 2013, at 20:35, meekerdb wrote:
> >
> >Some randomness can be useful, if only to solve the problem of
> >Buridan's ass.
> 
> I see what you mean, but some could argue that when you use a random
> device (like a coin) to make a decision, you abandon free will.
> Indeed you let a coin decide for you, when free will meant more that
> you are the one making the free decision.
> 

That hinges on the self-other distinction. A random coin toss is not
considered free will, as you are subsuming your will to an external
agent (the coin). But when you make a decision due to a random firing
of a neuron (random because the synaptic junctions are
thermodynamically noisy), then that is _you_ making the decision, it
is _your_ free will.


> 
> 
> 
> >But effective randomness is easy to come in the complex
> >environment of life.
> >
> >>On the contrary, deterministic free will make sense, because
> >>free will comes from a lack of self-determinacy, implying
> >>hesitation in front of different path, and self-indeterminacy
> >>follows logically from determinism and self-reference.
> >>
> >>First person indeterminacy can be used easily to convince
> >>oneself that indeterminacy cannot help for free will. Iterating
> >>a self-duplication can't provide free-will.

Why? That particular thought experiment proves that indeterminancy is
a fundamental feature of subjective life. Why shouldn't that be the
source of the indeterminism for solving Buridan ass type problems?

> >
> >As Dennett says deterministic free will is the only free will
> >worth having.
> 
> I agree with him on that. My pint above illustrate that. Random
> choice are not really "free" choice.
> 

Whereas, I don't really know what "deterministic free will" even
means. Probably a definitional thing.

> 
> >Why would anyone want to make decisions that were not determined
> >by their learning and memories and values.
> 

Of course, but that has nothing to do with free will :) Free will is
the ability to do something stupid, the ability to make decisions that
are not determined  learning, memories and values


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Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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