On 07 Mar 2013, at 15:20, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:



On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 10:28 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:



Isn't it more likely that the drug simply makes your narrative thoughts less able than usual to trace their sources? So it is like the Poincare' effect writ large?

I am not sure. Perhaps. If you make that idea more precise, I might concur. Is it consistent with what I just say here?

I think it is. Just as Poincare' had a proof spring into his mind we commonly have value judgement spring into mind. In some cases we can trace them back to an experience or what out parents told us; but generally we can't. I can see that drugs might inhibit that tracing back and make it seem that we are who we are independent of any history.


Well, yes and no. Some drugs under the right circumstances can produce large, highly specific memory recall.

They're seem to be different consistent shapes of altered states that emerge for large sets of people. Some are taken back to specific episodes of their childhood. The research funded by MAPS on MDMA for PTSD seems to be consistent, above a certain threshold, at eliciting general empathic euphoria towards oneself and world (why there are bumper stickers in California "Do NOT make marital decisions for at least 3 months after MDMA") that is strong enough for rape victims, traumatized soldiers etc., and their therapists to believe this kind of treatment to give them strength to "look at their trauma", so that the extreme empathic euphoria helps them let go. For sample sizes in phase 2 trials, this seems to work.

So for dissociative like Salvia, this might be partially true, but doesn't address the consistency of entities that people meet (not part of anybody's memories), or the Calabi-Yau manifold jewel objects that can be seen on DMT done properly,

I am not sure this makes sense.



and a veritable plethora of consistent objects and processes encountered by people who explore certain things. Alcohol works in that blunt way.

Dissociative plants and molecules might derive their action partially from this, but why and how could say a multi-dimensional breathing dragon lattice that oozes gigantic amounts of self-evident wisdom, containing instructions on how to read its language, history, and its being, just churn up in somebody's head through memory tracing inhibition? Sorry, but nobody met that kind of thing yesterday or saw it in a Harry Potter movie or book; much less communicate with it.

People have never seen or experienced such objects or properties in the physical world (learning an alien language in a couple of minutes), much less communication with them in said languages => "waking life" inhibits memories of much larger sets of memory; that is, if you don't think these hallucinations are just toxic delusional junk of material nervous system reactions. For that, the hallucinations should be called "visions" more neutrally, as their precision in otherness towards personal experience or in selective memory recall imply more than merely amnesia or lack of traceability.

Nobody can prove this yet. But the studies are piling up on consistency of the "content" instead of "lack of traceability" at Maps, John Hopkins psilocybin studies etc.

There are so many varieties of experiences in this area, that one can only point towards Pendell's trilogy and works of this kind that try to chart or get some handle on their content. The mechanism you describe: lack of traceability, reducing to limiting => eternal qualia of independence of histories is insufficient in addressing too many consistent features in terms of precision of architectural content in the action of the experiences themselves, that are indeed, in case of quite a few molecules, testable and consistent.

That Bruno buys this, surprises me frankly as it essentially equates the subtleties of Salvia to alcohol delirium.

Buy what?

It might help if you could quote the passage I wrote making you think so, as you might misinterpret or generalize what I said.

Bruno



PGC

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