On 07 Mar 2013, at 16:11, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:



On Friday, March 8, 2013, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 3/7/2013 8:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:59:50 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: By the definition I gave above a stone does not choose to roll down the hill because it does not consider each option in order to decide which one to do.

Why doesn't it choose when and which direction to roll? A deterministic universe means that there is no such thing as 'considering each option' - there are no options, only things happening because they must happen. They have no choice, there is no choice, the lack of choice is the defining feature of a deterministic world. You are saying that this is the world that we live in and that we are the stone, except that for some reason we have this delusional interactive narrative in which we could not stand being still any longer and decided to push ourselves down the hill.

Hi,

From my studies of the math of classical determinism, the subsequent 'behavior' of the stone follows strictly in a one-to-one and onto fashion from the prior state of the stone. There are no 'multiple choices' of the stone, thus no room at all for "choice". Thankfully we know that classical determinism is a delusion that some, for their own reasons, cling to.

Yes, we know that classical determinism is wrong,

Locally, in the first person view of the observers. But quantum mechanics without wave collapse is "classically deterministic". It is even a sort of linear rotation in some space.

Also, no machine can distinguish a random phenomenon from some output of a machine more complex than herself, making the idea that randomness can be observed non refutable.

Then comp alone entails a myriad forms of local indeterminacies.

I think we agree that this cannot be used to "explain" free will.



but it is not logically inconsistent with consciousness. It is also not logically inconsistent with choice and free will, unless you define these terms as inconsistent with determinism, in which case in a deterministic world we would have to create new words meaning pseudo-choice and pseudo-free will to avoid misunderstanding, and then go about our business as usual with this minor change to the language.



OK.

Bruno



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Stathis Papaioannou


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Stathis Papaioannou

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