On 3/9/2013 5:53 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 8:13:38 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

    On 3/9/2013 4:48 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

    On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:26:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

        On 3/9/2013 4:06 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

        On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:30:53 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:

            On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Craig Weinberg 
<whats...@gmail.com> wrote:

            >> They are not powerless to stop them since if someone yells, "Hey, 
            >> they may stop. This is the case even though the process is still
            >> deterministic or probabilistic.
            > In a deterministic universe, a person who is determined to steal 
a car will
            > steal it regardless of whether someone yells at them. If someone 
yelling at
            > the thief creates an opportunity for the them to exercise free 
will over
            > their own actions, then it is not a deterministic universe. You 
can yell at
            > a stone rolling down a hill as much as you want and there will be 
no change
            > in where the stone rolls.

            In a deterministic universe it is determined whether the thief will
            stop if someone yells at him. However, neither the person yelling 
the thief knows for sure whether he will stop or not.

        What difference would it make to them if neither the person yelling nor 
        thief can control whether or not they are yelling or stealing?

        It will make exactly whatever difference is determined (or random).

    You're not getting my point. If you say that the boat doesn't exist, why 
would it
    matter if it has a hole in it or not?

        I don't know whether or not a puddle in the gutter will dry out or not
        overnight, but why would that generate some sort of interest to me?

            Furthermore, it
            is not possible to know for sure if the thief will stop or not even
            with a perfect model of his brain, due to the nature of classical
            chaotic systems.

        It doesn't matter because in a deterministic universe it would be 
        to care whether the thief would stop or not.

        Unless it was determined that you would care, in which case it would 
        not to care.  That's what deterministic means, things are *determined*.

    Why would there be a such thing as "care" in a deterministic universe? I 
    think it is defensible that it could. If *all things are determined* then 
there can
    be no "care".

    Only because you are determined to think so (in both senses).

No, because it doesn't make sense the other way. What could it mean to care in a deterministic world?

What does it mean in a random world? Same thing - it means committing resources to make it happen or prevent it happening. The Mars rover cares about not getting stuck, so it spends sensor time and cpu cycles and battery power to evaluate paths and take the long way around obstacles.

You care about people agreeing that computers can't be conscious, so you spend hours asserting it on the internet.


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