On 10 Mar 2013, at 15:14, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2013 4:33:43 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 10 Mar 2013, at 01:48, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:26:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 3/9/2013 4:06 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:30:53 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:
On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Craig Weinberg
<whats...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> They are not powerless to stop them since if someone yells,
"Hey, stop!"
>> they may stop. This is the case even though the process is still
>> deterministic or probabilistic.
>
>
> In a deterministic universe, a person who is determined to steal
a car will
> steal it regardless of whether someone yells at them. If someone
yelling at
> the thief creates an opportunity for the them to exercise free
will over
> their own actions, then it is not a deterministic universe. You
can yell at
> a stone rolling down a hill as much as you want and there will
be no change
> in where the stone rolls.
In a deterministic universe it is determined whether the thief will
stop if someone yells at him. However, neither the person yelling
nor
the thief knows for sure whether he will stop or not.
What difference would it make to them if neither the person
yelling nor the thief can control whether or not they are yelling
or stealing?
It will make exactly whatever difference is determined (or random).
You're not getting my point. If you say that the boat doesn't
exist, why would it matter if it has a hole in it or not?
I don't know whether or not a puddle in the gutter will dry out or
not overnight, but why would that generate some sort of interest
to me?
Furthermore, it
is not possible to know for sure if the thief will stop or not even
with a perfect model of his brain, due to the nature of classical
chaotic systems.
It doesn't matter because in a deterministic universe it would be
impossible to care whether the thief would stop or not.
Unless it was determined that you would care, in which case it
would impossible not to care. That's what deterministic means,
things are *determined*.
Why would there be a such thing as "care" in a deterministic
universe? I don't think it is defensible that it could. If *all
things are determined* then there can be no "care".
Everything is determined does not entail that *you* can determine
everything.
But it does entail that we cannot determine anything. That's my
point, is that care can only arise out of the possibility of
determining something ourselves, just as the idea of a game can only
arise out of the possibility of participation. Without that
possibility of direct participation, the whole ontological basis of
"care" is nullified as "clouds" would be nullified in the absence of
the possibility of atmosphere.
OK, but then you agree that the "universe" can be entirely
deterministic, and determined (perhaps only in God eyes), and yet we
have still free will, due to the fact that "we" cannot determine
everything. this will be in general the case when we are confronted
with machine as complex, or more complex than ourselves.
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
>> A court would not let you off if you got an expert witness in
to say that
>> you were not responsible for your crime due to the way your
brain works.
>> This is not because the judge does not believe the expert
witness, it is
>> because brain physics is not relevant to the question of
responsibility for
>> a crime.
>
>
> When a suspect pleads insanity, they are saying precisely that
the brain
> physics is relevant to the question of responsibility for a
crime. An expert
> witness who can establish that you have a tumor in an area of
your brain
> which is associated with impulse control will have a very good
chance of
> convincing a judge that brain physics is indeed relevant.
Mentally ill people don't have different brain *physics*.
Splitting hairs. Using English words in a nonsense order may
technically be *English* but it is still a language problem.
If the brain
is deterministic in a well person it is deterministic in a mentally
ill person as well. The difference is that the mentally ill person
may
not be able to (deterministically) respond to certain situations in
the way a well person will (deterministically) respond to them.
Judges
are usually quite intelligent people and I expect that most of them
are aware that everything in the world must be either determined or
random, but they still make their judgements despite this.
No judge could make any judgment against a person if they really
believed that everything must be determined or random. That would
mean that their judgments would also be deterministic or random,
so that they would not be a judge at all, but rather a pawn of
"inevitable and necessary consequences of antecedent states of
affairs."
Judgment is impossible under determinism.
Unless it's determined, in which case non-judgement is impossible.
You are confusing determinism with omnipotent magic.
Craig
Brent
Craig
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