On 11 Mar 2013, at 00:57, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:51:35 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
On 3/10/2013 1:08 PM, spudb...@aol.com wrote:
Question- I also thought determinism mean't that you could predict where and when, a particle could move. But that Werner Heisenberg, said that you could determine, on, but never the other. Would you say that the universe is predictable and Heisenberg might be wrong?

Thanks.

Mitch

Determinism doesn't mean that you can predict everything. Determinism means the future is completely determined by the past.

Which means that a deterministic universe always begins with a miracle that is never allowed to happen again.

There is no deterministic universe because there is no universe (in the common Aristotelian sense).

The appearance of a universe "appears" from the average Löbian arithmetical relation existing in arithmetic. That explains both qualia and quanta, qualitatively and quantitatively, and is the only solution available when you bet on computationalism.

The only miracles here are that 0+1 = 1, 0*1 = 0, + similar, and that you stay conscious with an artificial brain.

In your approach it looks like there are more miracles: the miracle of sense, the miracle of matter, and the miracle of a non intelligible relation between both. And all this to refuse to allow a man with a wounded brain to have a chance of surviving .... Hmm...

Bruno








Craig


But in order to use that for prediction you have to know the past as well as the time evolution operator. This is impossible for a couple of reasons. First, you can only know about the past that is within your past light cone. There are things happening on the Sun that you can't know about for another eight minutes. If those are things that can influence what you're trying to predict then you're out of luck. Second, deterministic systems are not necessarily stable, so infinitesimal errors in your knowledge of the present state or in the evolution operator can result in large errors in prediction. So even if Heisenberg was wrong (and there's lots of evidence he wasn't and none that was) the universe still wouldn't be predictable.

Brent

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