On 11 Mar 2013, at 14:48, Richard Ruquist wrote:

On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 10 Mar 2013, at 15:14, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Sunday, March 10, 2013 4:33:43 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 10 Mar 2013, at 01:48, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:26:25 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

On 3/9/2013 4:06 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:30:53 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>
wrote:

They are not powerless to stop them since if someone yells, "Hey,
stop!"
they may stop. This is the case even though the process is still
deterministic or probabilistic.


In a deterministic universe, a person who is determined to steal a car
will
steal it regardless of whether someone yells at them. If someone
yelling at
the thief creates an opportunity for the them to exercise free will
over
their own actions, then it is not a deterministic universe. You can
yell at
a stone rolling down a hill as much as you want and there will be no
change
in where the stone rolls.

In a deterministic universe it is determined whether the thief will stop if someone yells at him. However, neither the person yelling nor
the thief knows for sure whether he will stop or not.


What difference would it make to them if neither the person yelling nor
the thief can control whether or not they are yelling or stealing?


It will make exactly whatever difference is determined (or random).


You're not getting my point. If you say that the boat doesn't exist, why
would it matter if it has a hole in it or not?



I don't know whether or not a puddle in the gutter will dry out or not
overnight, but why would that generate some sort of interest to me?


Furthermore, it
is not possible to know for sure if the thief will stop or not even
with a perfect model of his brain, due to the nature of classical
chaotic systems.


It doesn't matter because in a deterministic universe it would be
impossible to care whether the thief would stop or not.


Unless it was determined that you would care, in which case it would impossible not to care. That's what deterministic means, things are
*determined*.


Why would there be a such thing as "care" in a deterministic universe? I don't think it is defensible that it could. If *all things are determined*
then there can be no "care".


Everything is determined does not entail that *you* can determine
everything.


But it does entail that we cannot determine anything. That's my point, is that care can only arise out of the possibility of determining something ourselves, just as the idea of a game can only arise out of the possibility of participation. Without that possibility of direct participation, the
whole ontological basis of "care" is nullified as "clouds" would be
nullified in the absence of the possibility of atmosphere.


OK, but then you agree that the "universe" can be entirely deterministic, and determined (perhaps only in God eyes), and yet we have still free will, due to the fact that "we" cannot determine everything. this will be in general the case when we are confronted with machine as complex, or more
complex than ourselves.

Ahh, but we will have the allusion of free will, right?

No.
Free will is not an illusion. It is real. God can predict what I will do? Well, I guess he knows me well, then, but this has nothing to do with the fact that I do have genuine free will. It is almost like consciousness, it cannot be an illusion. You do have choice. Real choice, making you responsible. God knows what you will do. But that's because he knows a lot of thing. You don't know, and you still have to do the choice.




Such determinism in the eyes of god comes with MWI cosmology.


Not in my case. It comes from elementary arithmetic and computer science. MWI, or "Many-1-dreams/many-3-computations".

Bruno



I think Feynman QED with instant comp processing in our eyes,
may be able to remove the allusion and make free will real.




Richard



Bruno




Craig



Bruno












A court would not let you off if you got an expert witness in to say
that
you were not responsible for your crime due to the way your brain
works.
This is not because the judge does not believe the expert witness, it
is
because brain physics is not relevant to the question of
responsibility for
a crime.


When a suspect pleads insanity, they are saying precisely that the
brain
physics is relevant to the question of responsibility for a crime. An
expert
witness who can establish that you have a tumor in an area of your
brain
which is associated with impulse control will have a very good chance
of
convincing a judge that brain physics is indeed relevant.

Mentally ill people don't have different brain *physics*.


Splitting hairs. Using English words in a nonsense order may technically
be *English* but it is still a language problem.


If the brain
is deterministic in a well person it is deterministic in a mentally ill person as well. The difference is that the mentally ill person may not be able to (deterministically) respond to certain situations in the way a well person will (deterministically) respond to them. Judges are usually quite intelligent people and I expect that most of them are aware that everything in the world must be either determined or
random, but they still make their judgements despite this.


No judge could make any judgment against a person if they really believed that everything must be determined or random. That would mean that their judgments would also be deterministic or random, so that they would not be a judge at all, but rather a pawn of "inevitable and necessary consequences of
antecedent states of affairs."

Judgment is impossible under determinism.


Unless it's determined, in which case non-judgement is impossible.


You are confusing determinism with omnipotent magic.

Craig



Brent


Craig



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