On 12 Mar 2013, at 00:01, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/11/2013 6:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 10 Mar 2013, at 22:51, meekerdb wrote:

On 3/10/2013 1:08 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
Question- I also thought determinism mean't that you could predict where and when, a particle could move. But that Werner Heisenberg, said that you could determine, on, but never the other. Would you say that the universe is predictable and Heisenberg might be wrong?



Determinism doesn't mean that you can predict everything. Determinism means the future is completely determined by the past. But in order to use that for prediction you have to know the past as well as the time evolution operator. This is impossible for a couple of reasons. First, you can only know about the past that is within your past light cone. There are things happening on the Sun that you can't know about for another eight minutes. If those are things that can influence what you're trying to predict then you're out of luck. Second, deterministic systems are not necessarily stable, so infinitesimal errors in your knowledge of the present state or in the evolution operator can result in large errors in prediction. So even if Heisenberg was wrong (and there's lots of evidence he wasn't and none that was) the universe still wouldn't be predictable.

.... the universe still wouldn't be predictable, by the observers inside.

What outside is there?

Heaven, Gods, or ... large categories, model of big set theories. With comp those things might only be machines/numbers' epistemological tools. but some numbers believe in their absolute existence. Anyway, it is handy to point on such Gods' eye view or on the point of view of nowhere, to make a point. No need to make those things basically ontological, as they do exist on the epistemological plane. from inside arithmetic, numbers can dream on far bigger things, and even have to invoke them to figure out the inside structure (like we can need the complex plane to study the prime number distribution).



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