On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote:
No, I think that you haven't understood it,

That's because you are only working with a straw man of me. What is it that you think that I don't understand? The legacy view is that if you have many molecular systems working together mechanically, you will naturally get emergent properties that could be mistaken for teleological entities. You can't tell the difference between a brain change that seems meaningful to you and a meaningful experience which causes a brain change. Just because you feel like you are moving your arm doesn't mean that isn't just a narrative fiction that serves a valuable evolutionary purpose.

All of that is fine, in some other theoretical universe. In our universe however, it can't work. There is no evolutionary purpose for consciousness or narrative fictions. The existence of the feeling that you can control your body makes no sense in universe where control is impersonal and involuntary. There is no possibility for teleology to even be conceived in a universe of endless meaningless chain reactions - no basis for proprietary attachment of any kind. It's circular to imagine that it could be important for an epiphenomenal self to believe it is phenomenal. Important how? It's like adding a steering wheel to a mountain.

due to whatever biases have led you to invest so much in your theory - a theory which is AFAICT completely unfalsifiable and predicts nothing.

No theory which models consciousness will ever be falsifiable, because falsifiability is a quality within consciousness. As far as prediction goes, one of the things it predicts that people who are bound to the extremes of the philosophical spectrum will be intolerant and misrepresent other perspectives. They will cling pathologically to unreal abstractions while flatly denying ordinary experience.

Materialism + computationalism can lead to nihilism. But computationalism, per se, does not deny ordinary experiences. It starts from that, as it is a principle of invariance of consciousness for a digital substitution made at some level.

Bruno




Craig





On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:55:26 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote:



On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote:

Exactly. It is interesting also in that it seems to be like one of those ambiguous images, in that as long as people are focused on one fixed idea of reality, they are honestly incapable of seeing any other, even if they themselves are sitting on top of it.


The irony in that statement is staggering. I couldn't satirize you any better if I tried.

Why, do you think that I have never considered the bottom up model of causation?


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