On Saturday, March 16, 2013 3:15:43 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
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> On 15 Mar 2013, at 20:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:
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> On Friday, March 15, 2013 3:04:24 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote:
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>> No, I think that you haven't understood it, 
>>
>
> That's because you are only working with a straw man of me. What is it 
> that you think that I don't understand? The legacy view is that if you have 
> many molecular systems working together mechanically, you will naturally 
> get emergent properties that could be mistaken for teleological entities. 
> You can't tell the difference between a brain change that seems meaningful 
> to you and a meaningful experience which causes a brain change. Just 
> because you feel like you are moving your arm doesn't mean that isn't just 
> a narrative fiction that serves a valuable evolutionary purpose.
>
> All of that is fine, in some other theoretical universe. In our universe 
> however, it can't work. There is no evolutionary purpose for consciousness 
> or narrative fictions. The existence of the feeling that you can control 
> your body makes no sense in universe where control is impersonal and 
> involuntary. There is no possibility for teleology to even be conceived in 
> a universe of endless meaningless chain reactions - no basis for 
> proprietary attachment of any kind. It's circular to imagine that it could 
> be important for an epiphenomenal self to believe it is phenomenal. 
> Important how? It's like adding a steering wheel to a mountain.
>  
>
>> due to whatever biases have led you to invest so much in your theory - a 
>> theory which is AFAICT completely unfalsifiable and predicts nothing.
>>
>
> No theory which models consciousness will ever be falsifiable, because 
> falsifiability is a quality within consciousness. As far as prediction 
> goes, one of the things it predicts that people who are bound to the 
> extremes of the philosophical spectrum will be intolerant and misrepresent 
> other perspectives. They will cling pathologically to unreal abstractions 
> while flatly denying ordinary experience.
>
>
> Materialism + computationalism can lead to nihilism. But computationalism, 
> per se,  does not deny ordinary experiences. It starts from that, as it is 
> a principle of invariance of consciousness for a digital substitution made 
> at some level.
>

It may not deny ordinary experiences, but it doesn't support them 
rationally either. What is a reason why computation would be processed as 
an ordinary experience, when we clearly can be accomplished through 
a-signifying mechanical activities?

Craig
 

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> Bruno
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> Craig
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>  
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>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote:
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>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 15, 2013 1:55:26 PM UTC-4, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly. It is interesting also in that it seems to be like one of 
>>>>> those ambiguous images, in that as long as people are focused on one 
>>>>> fixed 
>>>>> idea of reality, they are honestly incapable of seeing any other, even if 
>>>>> they themselves are sitting on top of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The irony in that statement is staggering. I couldn't satirize you any 
>>>> better if I tried. 
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why, do you think that I have never considered the bottom up model of 
>>> causation?
>>>
>>>
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