On Monday, March 18, 2013 4:02:51 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote:
>
>
> friends:
> don't put so much brain-grease into Free Will, please! 
> It is the religious mambo-jumbo put into the mind of the poor-believers in 
> ancient times to make them responsible for deeds the powerful disliked - 
> and consequently: make them punishable. Then it became a 'human treasure': 
> *"We are FREE to Will!" *(like a god) and now even smart, reasonable 
> people like us spend centuries to discuss it. 
> A decision is right when it goes smoothly with the given and continuing 
> circumstances it has to fit into (Think of the mis - construed 'evolution': 
> if it does not 'fit' the mutant perishes). 
> We may (or may not) know about the given circumstances and for sure may 
> have only desultory and unsafe notions about the 'coming' ones. Our 
> evaluation (call it computing?)  results in a decision (conscious or not) 
> for our activity - OR just way of thinking. Reasonably we try to abide by 
> those circumstances we know of and formulate (consciously, or not) our 
> decision according to our best belief (maybe this is contrary to our 
> interest?). Hence emerges FREE WILL. 
> I am not faithful enough to believe in MY free will and go to hell by 
> force of this misconception. I may make mistakes.
> I am not deterministically forced to comply with all facets of the 
> infinite complexity - known,  or unknown. I can revolt. Meaning: I can 
> knowingly choose the wrong decision. 
> Is that free will? Maybe. That's a matter of definition.
>
>
Even the possibility of conceiving of 'revolt' is free will. The idea that 
anything can be a 'matter of definition' is free will. Preferences.. 
departures from expectations. Can a computation revolt? Can the solution to 
a function be a matter of definition?

Craig

Regards 
> John Mikes
>  
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> On 15 Mar 2013, at 18:22, meekerdb wrote:
>>
>>  On 3/15/2013 7:16 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>  
>>   You're walking down a road and spot a fork in the road far ahead. You 
>> know of advantages and disadvantages to both paths so you arn't sure if you 
>> will go right or left, you haven't finished the calculation yet, you 
>> haven't decided yet. Once you get to the fork you find yourself on the left 
>> path and retroactively conclude that you must have "decided" to go left.
>>  
>>
>>  Yes. That's what I mean by free will. Roughly speaking. Except that I 
>> decided consciously before acting. If not, it is like randomness, or 
>> unconscious decision, and that is not free will. Free-will is when I want 
>> to go the left, and decide accordingly to go to the left, and nobody coerce 
>> me to not go to the left. It is not much different than will + freedom.
>>
>>
>> That seems to me just and explanation of a certain *feeling* of a feeling 
>> of freedom and of will.  If you find yourself on the left path without 
>> having consciously thought "I'll take the left." then you miss the feeling 
>> of will.  But it may just be that your conscious thoughts are lagging a 
>> little. 
>>
>>
>> ?
>> I agree but that makes free-will independent of the feeling. With my 
>> definition of free will, it is real,even if not felt, as the machine have 
>> the real possibility to hesitate between subgoals and make choice 
>> hesitantly, knowing partially the consequences.
>>
>>
>>
>> When you're playing a game, say tennis, and you hit the ball to the left 
>> you may have done so without conscious consideration yet it was just the 
>> right shot and so was what you "willed" to win which you realize on 
>> reflection. 
>>
>>
>> OK. Although I think that free-will is more typical for decision taking 
>> more time, and more self-controversial, like the decision to drink some 
>> beer before driving a plane with passengers ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You have a feeling of freedom so long as you are not coerced or limited 
>> by something you can consciously consider; that's essentially all the 
>> feeling of freedom is, not being able to think of anything that is 
>> restricting or coercing you from taking an action.  Since you can't be 
>> directly aware of deterministic or random processes in your brain, whether 
>> they are random or deterministic has no bearing on the freedom+will feeling.
>>
>>
>> I agree. But I think that free-will is more than a feeling. It is a real 
>> possibility of reflected choice. Indeed it has nothing to so with 
>> determinacy or randomness.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> Brent
>>  
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>>
>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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