On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:15:29 AM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:34 AM, Stathis Papaioannou 
> <stat...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Craig Weinberg 
>> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> DanieL Dennett believes that free will is compatible with determinism.
>> >> He doesn't like it when people define free will in such a way as to
>> >> make it impossible.
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, I didn't say he was perfect, but at least he doesn't claim that 
>> free
>> > will is an outright illusion or epiphenomenon. The notion that science 
>> needs
>> > to be more 'creative' would be tough to pull off if you insist on the 
>> Laws
>> > of Physics deny the possibility of free will by definition point of 
>> view.
>>
>> I also have a very simple and straightforward idea of free will: I
>> exercise my free will when I make a choice without being coerced. I
>> never said that the laws of physics deny the possibility of free will,
>> but free will is impossible if you define it in such a way as to be
>> incompatible with the laws of physics or even with logic.
>>
>>
>
> I would go further and say determinism is required for free will.  To 
> implement a mind that behaves as it intends requires that its components 
> behave in predictable and reliable ways.  If not, it is impossible for the 
> mind to reliably effect its will.
>

It's a good point but I would say that you are talking about simple 
reliability rather than determinism. Determinism is more an assertion that 
nothing can ever happen unless it is the inevitable effect of a specific 
pre-existing cause. My human free will requires that there is some reliable 
relation to satisfy my expectations of self control, but in my 
understanding. free will in general could not allow that all effects could 
be inevitable - not simply because the effectiveness of free will violates 
causality (which may or may not be true) but even more simply because the 
illusion of violating causality is a non-sequitur in a universe which 
requires no voluntary participation.

Craig


> Jason
>

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