On 27 Mar 2013, at 01:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:


Why random. Pseudo random can be enough, or the natural randomness contained
in the computable.
No machine can distinguish randomness from the behavior of a more complex
machine than herself,


so I think that the kind of randomness and
indetermination that you invoke in creativity is already there, in many form
and shape in the computable.

But it's interesting how you always need to bootstrap the process with
something external to the machine.

Yes. It is the price of being universal, you are free to explore non computable set of numbers, and you can crash, get in a loop. You can encounter many different universal numbers.

Take the pseudo-random generator.
To create different scenarios with a same algorithm that uses it, you
need different seeds. I can't think of a way for the Turing machine to
seed itself.

It can. It is a consequence of the closure for diagonalization. I explain this in my paper "Amoeba, Planaria and Dreaming Machine".
(more in the FOAR list).

You can chose a number of seeds yourself, read a clock,
use thermal readings from the processor and so on. But I can't think
of a way to avoid the exterior. See my problem?

The exterior is what we bet on constantly.
Why should we find a way to avoid the exterior?
We must just be careful to not confuse the exterior and the exterior relative aspects.

The point I made is conceptual: what I say is that we don't need real pure randomness. We have it by the first person indeterminacy, but its role is more in the statistical stabilization of the computable than used as a tool
in creativity, fro which the computable is enough random per se.

Ok, I think I grasp what you mean. But what about a finite turing
machine (as I assume the brain is)? I'm still struggling with my
previous observation.

All Turing machines are finite. By the FPI the average self- referentially correct machines is confronted to more complex sets and functions.

Universal set have productive complement, and the exterior is not computable. That does not make it disappear, on the contrary.



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