On 27 Mar 2013, at 01:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:snipWhy random. Pseudo random can be enough, or the natural randomnesscontainedin the computable.No machine can distinguish randomness from the behavior of a morecomplexmachine than herself,Nice!so I think that the kind of randomness andindetermination that you invoke in creativity is already there, inmany formand shape in the computable.But it's interesting how you always need to bootstrap the process with something external to the machine.

`Yes. It is the price of being universal, you are free to explore non`

`computable set of numbers, and you can crash, get in a loop. You can`

`encounter many different universal numbers.`

Take the pseudo-random generator. To create different scenarios with a same algorithm that uses it, you need different seeds. I can't think of a way for the Turing machine to seed itself.

`It can. It is a consequence of the closure for diagonalization. I`

`explain this in my paper "Amoeba, Planaria and Dreaming Machine".`

(more in the FOAR list).

You can chose a number of seeds yourself, read a clock, use thermal readings from the processor and so on. But I can't think of a way to avoid the exterior. See my problem?

The exterior is what we bet on constantly. Why should we find a way to avoid the exterior?

`We must just be careful to not confuse the exterior and the exterior`

`relative aspects.`

The point I made is conceptual: what I say is that we don't needreal purerandomness. We have it by the first person indeterminacy, but itsrole ismore in the statistical stabilization of the computable than usedas a toolin creativity, fro which the computable is enough random per se.Ok, I think I grasp what you mean. But what about a finite turing machine (as I assume the brain is)? I'm still struggling with my previous observation.

`All Turing machines are finite. By the FPI the average self-`

`referentially correct machines is confronted to more complex sets and`

`functions.`

`Universal set have productive complement, and the exterior is not`

`computable. That does not make it disappear, on the contrary.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.