On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:08:31 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>  On 4/10/2013 2:08 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
> Hi Telmo,
>  Yes, those are good counter examples. 
>  But I think to say "pain and pleasure are fine-tuned by evolution..." is 
> a sleight of hand. Pain and pleasure are phenomenological primitives. If 
> evolution created those primitives, how did it do that? By what mechanism? 
> �
>  Another way to think of this is to acknowledge that pain signals are 
> mediated by special nerves in the nervous system. But what makes those 
> nerves any different from a nerve that carries information about gentle 
> pressure? �You may be able to point to different neuroreceptors used, but 
> then that shifts the question to why different neuroreceptors should result 
> in different characters of experience.
> You have to ground the interpretation in behavior and its relation to 
> evolutionary advantage. People who put their hand in the fire withdraw it 
> quickly and exclaim to warn others.� People that don't suffer 
> reproductive disadvantage.

That's begging the question. People would withdraw their hand with the 
exact same rapidity regardless of the aesthetic quality of the signal. 
Terren and I understand this, and we understand that your view does not 
understand this. In a deterministic universe, there is no need to motivate 
stones to roll down hill. You can't remove all causal efficacy from will on 
one hand and then rely on it to justify aesthetics on the other. It doesn't 
work, and even if it did, it doesn't answer Terren's question: "how did it 
do that? By what mechanism?". Does evolution simply conjure "pain" from a 
magical box of infinite experiences, or are there some rules in place as to 
their nature? 


> Brent

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