Why would we even entertain the possibility that it does though? If computers had feelings wouldn't at least some of them complain about something or express some mood once in a while? > We can't be sure whether a > bacterium has desires and feelings either. We are made of the same > stuff as the bacterium and we have desires and feelings, so something > that doesn't have desires and feelings can have desires and feelings > when it is arranged in a particular way. Whether it is deterministic > or random is, as you have said, orthogonal to this. > I would give the benefit of the doubt that there is some degree of subjective content associated with bacteria on some level. The fact that they are arranged in different way is an obvious difference between bacteria and brains, but that is not the only difference. A human body has a different history than a bacterium as well. Different things happen when a human zygote divides than when a bacterium divides. You assume the cause is the configuration and the effect is the difference in behaviors and capacities. I consider the possibility that configuration reflects a different experience and that the cause and effect are bi-directional. The effect of experience may not be passed on in from one individual's body to another in a Lamarckian way, but that does not mean that there is not a conversation going on between two parallel aesthetics, one bottom-up unintentional and spatially local and one top-down intentional and temporally local (from a large now to a smaller now...i.e., when it is time for a particular shift, it begins to manifest in synchronous ways in multiple locations, like Newton and Leibniz). > > Why then do we care about the difference between freedom of choice and > > freedom from choice, and how can we even conceive of it in the first > place > > if the universe of our minds were truly deterministic? I think that the > > answer is obviously that our minds are not truly deterministic but > rather > > heavily impacted by the significance of our interaction with the real > world. > > Our brains could be deterministic and we would still have the same > ideas about games, freedom of choice, moral responsibility and > everything else. You're unusual in finding it inconceivable. > Why would we have any idea about 'choice' or 'freedom', or 'responsibility'? Why would those things be conceivable without any way to step back from determinism voluntarily? Do you think a typewriter thinks about choice or freedom? Does a machine gun think about responsibility? > > All games are created equal, but games which have real world > consequences > > are not games. This of course maps to the simulation argument - where > all > > simulations are interchangeable with each other, but none of them are > > interchangeable with the fundamental non-simulation. Digital fire can > burn > > down a simulated house in the game or a meta-simulatied house within a > game > > within a simulated house, but it can never burn down a real house > outside of > > all of the games. Games are easy, reality is harder. > > Unless simulated beings can have experiences. Like Bugs Bunny. Maybe he really enjoys the taste of carrots? > You are begging the > question by assuming that they cannot. You are saying that you know, a > priori, that we are not living in a simulation now, but you have to > explain how you know this. > I don't know it, but I understand why consciousness cannot be simulated by something which is not inherently conscious (because of the Presentation problem...hard problems, explanatory gap, binding problem, symbol grounding problem, mind-body symmetry problem) and I understand why assembled bodies in space do not necessarily equal continuous experiences through time, and why, in general, maps are not territories. The only counter-argument I see is wishes, promises, and threats based on presumptions about consciousness defined from a 3p behaviorist perspective. Craig > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.