2013/4/17 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>

>
>
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:02:30 AM UTC-4, Alberto G.Corona wrote:
>>
>> Animal psychology is clearly adaptive. No one denies that.
>>
>
> Animal behavior is adaptive, but that doesn't mean that psychology follows
> only from behavior. Psychology is a private aesthetic agenda which overlaps
> with adaptation to public conditions, but causality flows in both
> directions.
>
Causality flows in both directions. the human psychology modifies the
environment and the environment select the psychology. But this is not
something unknow: The most determinant environmental factor in the
evolution of human psychology is the psychology of the others, that is,
the life in society with other humans. This two way influence is studied by
game theorist. The study evolutionary stable strategies in which
a equilibrium points in which no strategy can be better and this strategy
can not be replaced by other oportunist others. These stable strategies,
that includes both ways, responses to the environment and actions to modify
the environment of others, conform the human psychology.

Moreover It may be the case that the pysical world is just in coherence
with the mind, so the history and laws that we perceive are just selected
by the existence of the mind. It may be the case that the mind is primary
and the reality a creation of the mind. The evolutionary history may
be secondary and not a cause as such, but it is an unvaluable proxy for the
study of the mind.

In fact from a timeless perspective, evolution does not exist. Just there
are portiions of the space time where there are observers and other where
don´t. but the lines of space time where there are a generations
of observers follows certain laws, wether determined by the "physics" or by
the mind that affect both. That have effects in how the physical world and
the minds change along these lines. Evolutionary psychology recognize this
close coupling between mind and the reality and their laws without imposing
a line of causality, It just use the laws to know the mind.

>
>
>>  Then is is very strange to know that many people denies any influence of
>> evolution in human psychology.
>>
>
> Influence is one thing, supervenience is another. Of course evolution
> influences human psychology, but human psychology is not an emergent
> property of evolution alone.
>
>
>> Specially when they deny any particular quality to humans that
>> distinguish them from animals.
>>
>
> There are thousands of qualities which distinguish H.sapiens from other
> animals.
>
>
>>
>> A pure cultural theory of human psychology is against natural selection,
>> and even against the notion of computability.
>>
>
> It's not against natural selection or computability, but it does make them
> some pieces of the puzzle rather than the entire thing. The universe has
> aesthetic agendas and anesthetic consequences. If we look at it through the
> anesthetic lens, then the evidence will appear to 'fill in' for the
> aesthetic truth which we have amputated. Just as our eyes fill in our
> visual blindspot, the entire universe does that, and is made out of the
> capacity to do that. This is the core proposition of my view.
> Computationalism is a self-fulfilling perspective, as is evolutionary
> biology, materialism, or theology. All describe the whole in the reduced
> terms of a part.
>
>
>> There is no computer that solve problems without loading a program. The
>> pogram is what is innate. the input data is te environment (social and
>> phisical) whose problems has to solve.
>>
>
> Before a program can load, there has to be a capacity to program, an
> expectation of running, a universe to run it in, a user to appreciate that
> it is running, etc. This is already sense and participation. Human quality
> consciousness is indeed elaborate and rich, but it is an elaboration of
> simpler forms of sensory-motor experiences, *not* anesthetic mechanisms.
> Mechanisms are like a trellis to help the vines of experience proliferate
> and thrive. There is no justification for the trellis without the vines,
> and no vines can come from the trellis.
>
>
>>
>> Craig: you can read about your objections and other in the article of the
>> Wikipedia:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Psychoevolutionary_theory<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoevolutionary_theory>
>>
>
> I'll check it out. Thanks.
>
> Craig
>
>
>>
>>
>> 2013/4/17 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:20:42 PM UTC-4, Alberto G.Corona wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Evolutionary psychology are falsable because there are psychological
>>>> experiments that can be designed to falsaify them. There a lot of them in
>>>> the literature. All of them are standard methods in psychology. Evolution
>>>> here is only the theoretical framework that allows to formulaate
>>>> psychological hypothesis. Then it is tested like any other psychological
>>>> hypothesis.
>>>>
>>>> There are interviews. respose time measurements . Card tests.
>>>> Statstical analysis. Crooss culture studies.etc. while other methods are
>>>> specific like game theory. Computer simulations  Hunter'gatherer studies
>>>> Etc.  There is a experimental test of an hypothesized instintive mechanism
>>>> for pumishmemt of free riders and another for giving advantages to
>>>> collaboorators by Price Cosmides. And Toby refered in my article. You can
>>>> take a look at it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that the evolutionary aspect is falsifiable, I just think that
>>> the link to psychology is always a fictional inference which is
>>> self-validating. We might see a meaningful pattern of behavior in
>>> individuals and societies, but seeing that pattern from the outside leads
>>> to impose a mechanical view onto subjective experiences, which we should
>>> know are driven by aesthetic and intentional considerations as well as
>>> survival and reproduction.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>>  By the way mi article suggest various experimental tests
>>>> El 16/04/2013 22:42, "Craig Weinberg" <whats...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:26:11 PM UTC-4, Alberto G.Corona wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It depends on the circunstances'. If you read the article i guess
>>>>>> that you will agree. But the thesis is that these moral intuitions are
>>>>>> erroneous in modern societies and have a strong bias against succeesful
>>>>>> people in any circunstance because these moral evaluations evolved in 
>>>>>> small
>>>>>> tribal societies where everyone knew the merits of everyone else in 
>>>>>> detail
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Evolutionary psychology is unfalsifiable, and in this case I think
>>>>> plainly used for an ideological purpose. By erroneously framing the 
>>>>> concept
>>>>> of social justice as rooted in envy to begin with, and then applying this
>>>>> pseudo-scientific validation of that error, the point is to say "Liberals
>>>>> are just jealous, and that's because they carry an evolutionary defect."
>>>>>
>>>>> What about all of the people who think that imperialism and
>>>>> aristocratic totalitarianism are perfectly fine? How did they escape this
>>>>> selection pressure?
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> El 16/04/2013 20:48, "Craig Weinberg" <whats...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 1:44:57 PM UTC-4, Alberto G.Corona wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sucessful in this context is someone that is in better conditions
>>>>>>>> to have offspring whatever the means. This describes how the moral
>>>>>>>> intuitions -like yours- are ellaborated in order to punish them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think that it is punishment to protect civilization from
>>>>>>> unchecked exploitation. Think of it as crime prevention after the fact.
>>>>>>> It's not about envy, it is about reducing threats to the common good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> El 15/04/2013 14:10, "Craig Weinberg" <whats...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> escribió:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > On Monday, April 15, 2013 5:56:31 AM UTC-4, Alberto G.Corona
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> This is thread is completely off-topic, but anyway:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> The evolutionary roots of envy and social justice:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/**9389******0864/Punitive-sentiment-**
>>>>>>>> agains******t-successful-**individuals-as-a-********
>>>>>>>> psychological-device-for-anti-********hidden-free-riders-in-**
>>>>>>>> ancestra******l-hunter-gatherers<http://www.scribd.com/doc/93890864/Punitive-sentiment-against-successful-individuals-as-a-psychological-device-for-anti-hidden-free-riders-in-ancestral-hunter-gatherers>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > What is "successful" about an heir to a dynastic fortune or the
>>>>>>>> beneficiary of some arbitrary condition of exploitation?
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Craig
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> 2013/4/14 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 7:56:35 AM UTC-4, Roger Clough wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> One of the great mysteries of liberalism
>>>>>>>> >>>> is the contradiction in its political stance
>>>>>>>> >>>> concerning rich corporations.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> On the one hand, it rejects the attempts of conservatives
>>>>>>>> >>>> to lower corporate taxes.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Liberals see that wealth inequality is a critically important
>>>>>>>> issue in the US.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> “For every one dollar of assets owned by a single black or
>>>>>>>> Hispanic woman, a member of the Forbes 400 has over forty million 
>>>>>>>> dollars.”
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> America Split in Two: Five Ugly Extremes of Inequality
>>>>>>>> http://truth-out.org/**buzzflash******/commentary/item/**17878-**
>>>>>>>> america****-split-in-two-**five-**ugly-**extrem**es-of-**inequality<http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/17878-america-split-in-two-five-ugly-extremes-of-inequality>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> But on the other hand, it
>>>>>>>> >>>> will bail out rich corporations such as General Motors
>>>>>>>> >>>> to prevent their failure.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Whoever is in power is going to support big bailouts, as the
>>>>>>>> conservatives proved in 2004 when they supported TARP.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> "Nearly half of Americans incorrectly think President Obama
>>>>>>>> started the the bank bailout program, otherwise known as the Troubled 
>>>>>>>> Asset
>>>>>>>> Relief Program (TARP), a new poll shows.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Just 34 percent of Americans surveyed by the Pew Research
>>>>>>>> Center correctly said that TARP was enacted by the Bush administration.
>>>>>>>> Almost half -- 47 percent -- think Mr. Obama started the bank bailout,
>>>>>>>> according to the survey, conducted July 1-5. There was no partisan 
>>>>>>>> divide
>>>>>>>> on the issue." - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-**50******
>>>>>>>> 3544_162-20013452-503544.**html<http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20013452-503544.html>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Craig
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> How's that again ?
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 4/14/2013
>>>>>>>> >>>> http://team.academia.edu/**Roger******Clough<http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough>
>>>>>>>> >>>
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>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>> >> Alberto.
>>>>>>>> >
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>>
>> --
>> Alberto.
>>
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-- 
Alberto.

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