Never argue with a logician! I try to insert some re-remarks into '&'-induced lines below John

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 02 May 2013, at 18:03, John Mikes wrote: > > Bruno asked:* "are you OK with this?"* - NO, I am not OK: > > as I follow, 0 is NOT a number, it does not change a number. > > > > 0 * 1000 = 0. > & read in English: 'zero times thousand is zero, - which is &-funny: it is not additional/subtractional only states that if I &take the '1000' *NOT AT ALL* I get nothing. You are right: I &have no problem with 0.000*89, 0*s as "position markers" for &the order of magnitude of the *89*. I have problems if (some &of the) 0-s are NOT zeros, like 0.204*89:* to use NUMBERS &as position-markers (the dirty trick of a decimal point -<G>) > > Well, I have to say you are the first to refuse to 0 the number status, > with the notable exception of the greeks, but they did not really > discovered it. > I am sure you have no problem with expression like "the concentration of > this product is 0.00089 cc". It uses the number 0, which is very useful in > the decimal or base notation of the natural and real, and complex numbers. > > But how do you *" A D D "* a number to another one if it is not > identified as a quantity? > > > "quantity" is already part of some interpretation, but you can use it, it > is very well. > &so you do not IDENTIFY, you just INTERPRET? (and do &so 'practically') > > > Can you add an electric train to the taste of a lolly-pop? > > > No, but those are not numbers. > &How would you know, if you do not know what NUMBERS &are? So far (my) 'Ding an Sich' can be anything. > > You speak about 'axioms' (- in my words they are inventions to prove a > theory's applicability.) > > > They are just hypotheses that we accept at the start for doing the > reasoning. Nobody ever says that an axiom is true, except in some > philosophical context. > &does that mean that 'an axiom is untrue'? if it is 'not true', &why should I accept the hypothesis based on it? Maria said &I lack a proposal substituting the accepted reasoning. &Pardon me, I am not smarter than those zillion wise men &who so far used 'numbers' - yet I have the right to question. > > So no *reversing* please: proving the theory by axioms. > > > We never do that. We always prove FROM axioms, and we always know that > "proving" does not entail truth or knowledge. Only pseudo-scientists > believe that we can prove things about some reality. > &I am not for 'proving', do not accept 'reality' and 'truth'. I am &just a simpleminded agnostic who asks questions. > > May I repeat the main question: is YOUR number a quantity? > > > Natural number have both. A quantity aspect, and an ordinality aspects, > like in the first, the second, the third, etc. > > so you can add (two = *II *to three = *III* and get five = *IIIII*) ?? > > > That's correct. > &Now I really do not get it. You marked the quantity-aspect &by pegs - au lieu de anything better. So WHAT is that & NUMBER TWO marked by 'II'? Do you COUNT them? &(what?) > > > If THAT is your axiom then numbers are quantity specifiers. > > > You can see it that way, but we don't need to agree on this, as long as > you agree with the axioms given. Agreeing in science does not mean that we > believe those axioms to be true, but that we can understand them and use it > to develop some other theories. > > Now 2+3 = 5 was not an axiom, but it can be derived from them easily. > &As an agnostic I cannot "agree in science" or it's axiomatic &bases just to submerge into a conventional belief system, &which includes the interlaced assumption-conclusion mass &we call 'science'. Numbers, or not. > > We may AGREE on that, but then numbers are indeed the products of human > thinking applied as humans think. *Q E D * > > > In which theory? > &Maybe in the overall 'belief' that we can understand the &world. > > I do not assume the humans as primitive, I try to explain them in the > theory which assumes that human can be Turing emulated. The result is that > the physical laws evolve from the relation between numbers, and this in a > testable way. the advantage is that we get an explanation (perhaps wrong, > of course) of why we have consciousness and qualia. > > &Please do not forget all those knowables we may acquire &later on - they may change the 'physical Law' of yesterday &even the "Turing emulation" of the 'HUMAN'. Which raises &again the question how reliable the "numbers" may be. (If &we agree in their identification). > > > > * > * > *Bruno: "...**That's very good, but we can also develop general > statement. We would not have discover the universal number (the computers) > without agreeing on those principles."* > * > * > That's a practicality and very fortunate. > > > It is also a conceptual very deep discovery. Before it, mathematicians > thought that no epistemiological concept (like computability) could have a > universal nature. They believe we could use Cantor's diagonalization to > refute all prtendion to universality in math, but computability seems to be > an exception (cf the Church Turing thesis). > > > > > Does not enlighten the problem of what 'numbers' may be, if not > quantifiers. > > > The problem is what mind and matter are. The numbers are tools that we > use, and we don't even try to explain them, if only because we can already > explain (in the comp theory) why it is impossible to understand what they > are from anything simpler than them. > &My common sense feeling bows before that. &I would leave out mind, matter, consciousness and accept &the numbers as (simplest) tools in a certain aspect. Unless &you want to include the 'computation' term for non-math i.e. &analogue or else not even thought of) topics (logical?) when &I may see trouble again. Complexity of the world is beyond &our capabilities (infinite?) to comprehend. &- John > > BrunO :) > > > > JOhn > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 01 May 2013, at 22:09, John Mikes wrote: >> >> Bruno asked why I have problems how to figure out *'numbers'*. * * >> >> In his texts (as I remember and I have no quotes at hand) the "world" can >> be construed from a large enough amount of numbers in simple arithmetical >> ways (addition-subtraction). Also: numbers do not mean quantities. >> If his older post with pegs (II=two, IIII=four etc.) is OK, the 'words' >> two and four DO mean quantities. If not, as 'numbers' they are meaningless >> combinations of letters (sounds?) we could call the series any way, as well >> as e.g.: >> tylba, chuggon, rpais, etc. for 1,2,3 - or take them from any other >> language (eins,zwei,drei, - egy, kettő, három) as they developed in diverse >> domains/lifestyles. The 'numbers' would be like "Ding an Sich" (German) >> however used as qualifiers for quantities if so applied (see Bruno's 'pegs' >> above). >> >> >> The terms we are using are not important. All we need is some agreement >> on some theory. >> Most things we need for the natural numbers can be derived from the >> following axioms (written in english): >> >> any number added to zero gives the number we started with (= x + 0 = x) >> 0 is not the successor of any natural number >> if two numbers are different, then they have different successors >> a number x added to a successor of a number y gives a successor of the >> sum of x and y. >> >> Are you OK with this? >> >> In science we know that we cannot define what we are talking about, but >> we can agree on some principles about them. >> > > Bruno: *"...We would not have discover(ed) the universal number (the > computers) without agreeing on those principles." * > * > * > To have discovered the 'universal number'(?) (i.e. computers) > is fine but that does not imply understanding on numbers: > like "numbers are such as to be applicable for..." etc. > My agnosticism needs more than that. Sorry. > >> >> >> >> >> More reasonably sounds the idea of my wife, Maria, who assigns the >> primitive development of quantities originally to proportions: "larger >> (amount)" - "smaller (amount)" evolving in some thousand centuries into the >> process of 'counting' the included units. >> >> >> That's very good, but we can also develop general statement. We would not >> have discover the universal number (the computers) without agreeing on >> those principles. >> >> >> >> I published on this list my thought for developing the Roman numbering >> signs. I started with 2 - a PAIR of hands etc. (not with one, which means >> only the existence) and branching into 5 (as fingers, as in pentaton music) >> already as 'many'. >> >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> I still have no idea what description could fit *'number'* in Bruno's >> usage (I did not study number - theory - to keep my common sense >> (agnostic?) thinking free). >> >> >> See above. >> >> Bruno >> >> John > >> >> >> >> John Mikes >> >> -- >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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