On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi <use...@rudnyi.ru> wrote:
> On 14.05.2013 11:01 Telmo Menezes said the following:
>
>> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13 May 2013, at 18:29, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
>>>
>
> ...
>
>
>>>> The author failed to make definitions for artificial and natural.
>>>> Could you define these terms?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The difference between natural and artificial is ... artificial.
>>>
>>> And thus it is natural ... for creatures which are developing some
>>> ego. "artificial" is a human indexical. Even with comp, we are part
>>> of nature. I think.
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree with this.
>>
>> The distinction is useful to simply qualify something as being the
>> product of human engineering (as in "Artificial Intelligence"). The
>
>
> Well, if we cannot define artificial vs. natural, then the question actually
> remains. Are computers for example artificial products or natural?

I guess an answer that would make sense to me would be: "both".

I think artificial is a useful concept, but just that. Natural is a
bit silly because, obviously, everything is a part of nature. So you
can have the artificial / non-artificial distinction, which is already
implicit in "intelligence" vs. "artificial intelligence" or "sugar"
vs. "artificial sweetener".

The opposite of natural would be unnatural (?). For example, a neon
blue cat the size of Europe is unnatural (as far as we know).

>
>> search for ETs, interestingly, forces the distinction into an
>> uncomfortable territory, because it's now "the product of some
>> intelligence's engineering". We have no way of knowing the full
>> spectrum of possibilities for alternative biologies, so we can never
>> be sure if, for example, a signal we receive from outer space is
>> "natural" or "artificial".
>
>
> This means that this kind of research is just a way to throw taxpayers money
> out.
> Hence, to be consistent, the government funding of search for
> extraterrestrial intelligence should be banned.

I don't think that follows. SETI is looking for ETs which are similar
enough to us to be detected by looking for stuff we're familiar with.
That seems like a reasonable goal to me.

Telmo.

> Evgenii
>
>
>> Or can we?
>>
>> Telmo.
>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Evgenii
>>>>
>>>>> Telmo.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It might be this is a good chance to look from another
>>>>>> perspective on an ASCII string that has no meaning for John
>>>>>> Clark. Could we find the difference between natural and
>>>>>> artificial if we say that a term "free will" is meaningless?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evgenii --
>>>>>> http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2013/03/natural-vs-artificial.html
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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