On 14 May 2013, at 11:01, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 13 May 2013, at 18:29, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

On 13.05.2013 17:41 Telmo Menezes said the following:

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi <use...@rudnyi.ru>
wrote:

Recently I have listened to a nice talk about the search of
extraterrestrial intelligence

http://embryogenesisexplained.com/2013/03/the-starivore-hypothesis.html



The author has mentioned two fallacies (slides 6 and 7)


Artificiality-of-the-gaps

and

Naturality-of-the-gaps

However, I was unable to understand his difference between
artificial and natural.


I believe he just means "generated by an intelligent biological
entity" vs "generated directly by nature". UFOs, the New York City
and burritos are artificial in this sense, while Clouds, the Grand
Canyon and apples are not.

He's then specifically alluding to the fallacy of assuming that
extra-terrestrial intelligent entities would be sufficiently similar
to us for us to notice them (an old but interesting debate).


Yes, but my point was to take this just as a starting point to ask
ourselves how we distinguish what is artificial and what is natural.

The author failed to make definitions for artificial and natural. Could
you define these terms?


The difference between natural and artificial is ... artificial.

And thus it is natural ... for creatures which are developing some ego. "artificial" is a human indexical. Even with comp, we are part of nature. I
think.

Yes, I agree with this.

The distinction is useful to simply qualify something as being the
product of human engineering (as in "Artificial Intelligence"). The
search for ETs, interestingly, forces the distinction into an
uncomfortable territory, because it's now "the product of some
intelligence's engineering". We have no way of knowing the full
spectrum of possibilities for alternative biologies, so we can never
be sure if, for example, a signal we receive from outer space is
"natural" or "artificial". Or can we?


The Belgian police got that message from the star (according to a test they made to recruit policemen, 40 years ago!):

I send it to FOAR so that Liz can train her brain for the slow but sure return to math :)

A, B, C, D, ... are conventional names for recognizable physical signals in the message we got. Can you decode it? It is the inverse of cryptography. The idea is that such a message can be understood by any patient enough (Löbian) entity having a small amount of inference ability.

Here is the message:

ABACAADABAACAAADAABAAACAAAAADAAAABACAAAAADAABAACAAAADAAABAACAAAAADAABACAAAD
AAAAABAAAAACAAAAAAAAAADEBACADAAAABECAAAADEBECEDAFAAACAAADAAFAAACAAAAAAD Etc.

The original text was much longer. What do you think we should think if ever we receive such a message from the sky?

It is not regular nor periodic, and it is highly redundant. From this you can bet it is an interesting message, but it could still be "natural", like the DNA code which is also non periodic and contains redundancy. So you can bet already that it is the result of a deep program (natural or artificial, alien?). Can you see the meaning of A, B, C, D, E, F.

Can you find a natural sequel to that string? I get that message when doing my first year on math study. Most student were able to decipher it, and to prolongate it into a message capable of explaining the location of the star from which the aliens have sent it in our galaxy, and much more (I will not say as to not give the answer).

A hint: a student did not succeed, but admits it was rather simple, when his little 10 years old brother decoded it. It is a problem whose difficulty relies in its simplicity, for some people.

What would we reasonably conclude if we were really getting a message like that?

We can argue if such a message defines a universal language or not.

Can such a message be "natural"? Here by "natural" I mean "not done by a self-aware creature".

Bruno






Telmo.

Bruno







Evgenii

Telmo.

It might be this is a good chance to look from another perspective
on an ASCII string that has no meaning for John Clark. Could we
find the difference between natural and artificial if we say that a
term "free will" is meaningless?

Evgenii --
http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2013/03/natural-vs-artificial.html

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