On Thursday, July 18, 2013 2:27:14 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
>  On 7/17/2013 10:13 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>  
> On 18 July 2013 14:34, meekerdb <mee...@verizon.net> <javascript:> wrote:
>
>  On 7/17/2013 8:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> On 17 July 2013 05:37, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> <javascript:> 
> wrote:
>
> On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:32:28 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>
> On 7/15/2013 2:30 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> Would this kind of universality of human sense-making be likely if the
> connections between words, shapes, and feelings were purely computational?
>
>
> Why not?  Being a broken line vs a differentiable line is a computable
> property.  The difference between "k" sounds and "b" sounds is computable.
> So I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Or are you asking how "k" came to
> be associated with "broken line" or how the written letter "k" was
> associated with the phonetic sound of "k"?
>
> I'm saying that a computer which is programmed to differentiate between the
> phonemes of 'ki-ki' and 'bou-ba' would have zero chance of associating
> either of them with the curvy figure or the pointy figure without some
> arbitrary link being provided programmatically. This suggests that there
> exists within human experience purely aesthetic, elemental associations
> which are synthetic a priori rather than arrived at mechanically. A computer
> can't tell that there is anything inherently curvy about the sound of bouba,
> but a person can.
>
> There's nothing inherently "curvy" about bouba. It's just an
> accidental of our programming. Intelligent aliens may have completely
> different aesthetics, although there may be commonalities if it could
> be shown that thinking a particular way has survival value. For
> example, there is a correlation between symmetry and beauty because
> (it is speculated) asymmetry is associated with disease, and your
> genes won't do as well if you choose a diseased mate. But other
> aesthetic preferences probably have no rational basis.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "rational" or what Craig means by "arbitrary".
> I think "kiki" is sharp and abrupt and "bouba" is smooth and cruvy because
> of the way we have to move our mouths to make those sounds.  This is an
> accident of evolution.  Whales, for example would make the sounds
> differently and this might create a different sound/shape correlation for
> them.  Does that mean that the human correlation is not rational or is
> arbitrary?  It seems to me it is empirical.
>
>  I did use the term "rational" perhaps inappropriately. I meant that
> some aesthetic choices have evolutionary utility and others not.
> Nevertheless, all aesthetic choices must be determined by the physics
> of our brain, unless they are determined by something else, such as an
> immaterial soul.
>
>  
> Exactly so.  But that's what Craig is trying to deny.  By saying the 
> correlation is arbitrary, he thinks that implies that it could only be 
> physically realized by a god or some agent inserting it "by hand" and so a 
> computer could only have it by a human programmer inserting it and that 
> would be "arbitrary".  
>

Not at all. I am saying that the correlation is aesthetic-experiential. It 
is grounded in a unity of sense which cuts across the multiplicity of  
sense modalities. Computation follows this unity, not leads it. This is my 
assertion that I challenge you to dispute rationally. I have never believed 
in a god or agent inserting anything by hand. That just shows me that you 
are not even seeing the first premises of my view. You argue with a straw 
cartoon.

I'll link you to my new diagram as well, which ideally would be 
three-dimensional, but it shows the proper place of computation in the 
universe:

http://multisenserealism.com/2013/07/17/multisense-syzygy-remastered/

Craig


> Brent
>  

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