Brent: I stopped short (but violated this rule many times ) from arguing
against the fallacies included in the age-old 'religious' belief systems.
The reason: one irate response took me to task: "who gave me superiority
over HIS (and other's) belief?" He was hurt and I don't like to hurt
people.
Sometimes I cannot resist the urge to 'tell' my opinion, - human weakness.
I mostly foul up when I see the fallacy reaching into reigious-based
political powermongery. Like the FREE WILL. Or contrtaception,
or...(etc<G>).
Lately I turn less patient and become more irritated. Maybe my age?
Best regards
John M


On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 3:30 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On 9/30/2013 2:02 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
>> Let me give an example: Free will.
>>
>> That we can choose between alternative actions (and we can predict the
>> consequences for the good or evil of ourselves and others) has been ever
>> considered a fact. something evident. No greek philosopher, no oriental
>> philosopher, to my knowledge, considered free will as something debatable.
>> That implicit definition of free will is the straight one and there is no
>> doubt about it.
>>
>
> Greek philosophers considered whether the gods pulled our strings like
> pupeteers, at least occasionally.  But of course they didn't consider
> clockwork determinism - that came after Newton.
>
>
>> The jews and christian had more reasons to attack free will, since an all
>> omnipotent omniscient creator God is at odds with the idea that the human
>> being can choose anything. But both wanted not to go against what is
>> evident the naked understanding: the fact that we can choose. Then Judaism
>> and Christianity created a theology compatible with human free will.
>>
>
> It isn't really clear that it's compatible.  If God both foresees bad
> action and fails to prevent it, then he fails the test of omnibenevolence.
>
>
>> That did not happen in the muslim word. I don´t like to cite names but
>> the idea of an omnipotent God was taken to the final consequences. Also the
>> Lutheran and specially calvinists. That is an ideológical negation of what
>> is evident. I mean, it is a negation of what is evident -free will as was
>> defined above- by cause of an idea external to the evidence, -the idea of
>> an omnipotent God.
>>
>
> The trouble is that contra-causal free will is not evident.  What is
> evident is a certain feeling and unpredictability (even by oneself).
>
>  To compatibilize with the evidence of free will, muslims and christian
>> reformists  entered in different forms of fatalism and negation of the
>> primacy of human understanding, so evidences such are the notion of free
>> will were not such evidences, but creations of our wicked nature. (Although
>> the idea of divine love saved protestants from the social starvation that
>> the negation of free will produced in the Muslim world).
>>
>> That has a exact parallel today in the negation of free will by cause of
>> the existence of deterministic laws. Since free will, as defined above is
>> evident, to construct the ideological negation, the contemporaries can not
>> get rid of human understanding, because the human capability for unlimited
>> knowledge is a dogma.
>>
>
> I don't know who maintains that!?  Can you cite where this "dogma" is
> written.  The idea that free will is a kind of unpredictability, per Scott
> Aaronson or Bruno, explicitly depend on the limited knowledge of human
> beings.
>
>  It  is necessary to redefine free will as something different, for
>> example as some unpredictability as a result of some process in the brain.
>>   Here is were the discussions about free will  are reduced today.
>>
>> Instead of that I want to stress the evidence of free will. According
>> with the naked definition, it is evident that we have free will.
>>
>
> It may be evident that we have "it", but it's not evident what "it" is.
>  As JC notes nobody seems to have a definition of it.  To me, that implies
> we need to look for an operational definition - which is where absence of
> coercion and unpredictable come in.  These are not very definite, since
> they admit of degrees, but they are in fact what social policy relies on.
>
>  All the rest, including theories, must accommodate this fact and not the
>> other way around.
>>
>
> The trouble is "this fact" just refers to a personal feeling and so is
> useless for social policy: "Did you feel that you had free will when you
> shot your husband?"
>
> Brent
>
>   The negation of this is not only to twist the concepts and to reverse
>> the order of science, that normally goes from evidence to theory, but it
>> can also have grave social consequences.
>>
>
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