On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 9:45:09 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 30 Sep 2013, at 01:48, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
> "But it really all comes down to the confluence of these various factors 
> that allows us to have this conversation in the first place,"
>
> Numbers can't have a confluence though. It's not sensation that is 
> primary, but sense. Sensation is a kind of sense and computation is a kind 
> of sensemaking, but computation by itself can have no sensation. Sense is 
> the primordial pre-fluence from which all confluences diverge.
>
>
>
> I think that "sense", in that sense, might be the consciousness of the 
> virgin universal numbers. The roots of the consciousness flux which will 
> differentiate (and fuse).
> And that is indeed not Turing emulable, but again, that is a consequence 
> of computationalism (and admitting that definition of sense).
>

There's a difference though, between the concept of differentiation/fusion 
as multiplicity-unity and the actual experience of participating in some 
kind of differentiation. I see no reason why a concept would prefigure a 
non-conceptual direct engagement. It seems to me fairly clear that 
computation can only be a consequence of a tangible occurrence, and equally 
clear that no tangible occurrence can be the consequence of pure 
computation. If it were possible to have representation without 
presentation, it doesn't make sense that there could be any such thing as 
presence or 'the present' at all.

Thanks, 
Craig


> Bruno
>
>
>
>
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> On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:29:39 AM UTC-4, freqflyer07281972 wrote:
>>
>> So it seems to me that all of us are situated within a spectacular 
>> confluence of cosmological and biological factors.
>>  
>> The cosmological factors include the fact that dark energy hasn't gotten 
>> strong enough to rip the whole works apart,
>> that the moon just so happens to be just as big as it is to provide us a 
>> perfect occlusion of the sun during an eclipse,
>> that we are just around the right time of our sun's evolution that we can 
>> rely on it to be stable for the next billion years or so,
>> that the moon is already properly tidally locked to our planet, such that 
>> it won't have any future effect on our rotation period (good for life!)
>>  
>> The biological factors include the fact that some self replicating 
>> molecule was able to find purchase on a home (DNA),
>> that it had enough time to evolve (it's home star was 'kind' and didn't 
>> burp ionizing radiation one or two or dozens of times the way we know other 
>> stars do)
>> that it had a kind substrate (i.e. earth) that provided the kind of 
>> atmospheric protection for life required in case the home star did burp
>> that we have come from a long line of survivors, and therefore we are 
>> almost automatically very robust, both physically and mentally
>>  
>> And yet we talk about whether we are made from numbers and their 
>> inexorable arithmetic relations(Bruno),
>> And we talk about whether sensation is ultimately primary, and perhaps 
>> the only thing (Craig),
>>  
>> But it really all comes down to the confluence of these various factors 
>> that allows us to have this conversation in the first place,
>>  
>> comp be damned, do I assume primitive physical reality? well, look at the 
>> sky and the moon and the time it's taken for this arbitrary contingent 
>> thing to evolve, how could it be computational?
>> multisense realism be damned, look at how things are conditioned by their 
>> structure and function as we find them objectively... there's a reason why 
>> hex wrenches open hex bolts, and it has nothing to do with sensation
>>  
>>  
>> Peace,
>>
>
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