2013/9/30 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> > On 9/30/2013 2:02 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > >> Let me give an example: Free will. >> >> That we can choose between alternative actions (and we can predict the >> consequences for the good or evil of ourselves and others) has been ever >> considered a fact. something evident. No greek philosopher, no oriental >> philosopher, to my knowledge, considered free will as something debatable. >> That implicit definition of free will is the straight one and there is no >> doubt about it. >> > > Greek philosophers considered whether the gods pulled our strings like > pupeteers, at least occasionally. But of course they didn't consider > clockwork determinism - that came after Newton. > > > >> The jews and christian had more reasons to attack free will, since an all >> omnipotent omniscient creator God is at odds with the idea that the human >> being can choose anything. But both wanted not to go against what is >> evident the naked understanding: the fact that we can choose. Then Judaism >> and Christianity created a theology compatible with human free will. >> > > It isn't really clear that it's compatible. If God both foresees bad > action and fails to prevent it, then he fails the test of omnibenevolence.
There were some solutions for that. but this not the subject of the discussion. That was a difficult question and there were some early sects that promulgated predestination. > > > >> That did not happen in the muslim word. I don´t like to cite names but >> the idea of an omnipotent God was taken to the final consequences. Also the >> Lutheran and specially calvinists. That is an ideológical negation of what >> is evident. I mean, it is a negation of what is evident -free will as was >> defined above- by cause of an idea external to the evidence, -the idea of >> an omnipotent God. >> > > The trouble is that contra-causal free will is not evident. What is > evident is a certain feeling and unpredictability (even by oneself). contra-causal why?. If the concept of free-will is according with the definition in the first paragraph, it is compatible with determinism at a lower level . If the circustances determine my conduct , then they also determine my fight agains the circunstances and my doubt about if my circunsances are determined or not, and my moral doubts about what I intend to do. What I can not do, think and feel if these phrases are true, with the word "determined" that I can do, think and feel if these phrases are false? Nothing. I act, think and feel according with the naked definition of free wll. Therefore we have free will. > > > To compatibilize with the evidence of free will, muslims and christian >> reformists entered in different forms of fatalism and negation of the >> primacy of human understanding, so evidences such are the notion of free >> will were not such evidences, but creations of our wicked nature. (Although >> the idea of divine love saved protestants from the social starvation that >> the negation of free will produced in the Muslim world). >> >> That has a exact parallel today in the negation of free will by cause of >> the existence of deterministic laws. Since free will, as defined above is >> evident, to construct the ideological negation, the contemporaries can not >> get rid of human understanding, because the human capability for unlimited >> knowledge is a dogma. >> > > I don't know who maintains that!? Can you cite where this "dogma" is > written. The idea that free will is a kind of unpredictability, per Scott > Aaronson or Bruno, explicitly depend on the limited knowledge of human > beings. > > It is necessary to redefine free will as something different, for >> example as some unpredictability as a result of some process in the brain. >> Here is were the discussions about free will are reduced today. >> >> Instead of that I want to stress the evidence of free will. According >> with the naked definition, it is evident that we have free will. >> > > It may be evident that we have "it", but it's not evident what "it" is. > As JC notes nobody seems to have a definition of it. To me, that implies > we need to look for an operational definition - which is where absence of > coercion and unpredictable come in. These are not very definite, since > they admit of degrees, but they are in fact what social policy relies on. > > See above. I´m not saying that the problem is settled. What I´m saying is that it is settled what I´m interersted in. And I´m primarily and above all interested in the definition of free will used by the early phylosophers that asked themselves about free will, and not a derivative issue as a result of some belief or discovery that created a theory that has implications for free will. But at the same time, I strongly suspect that the people mix all these levels in a single one and extract conclussions that are deleterious for his life. I believe, or affirm that knowledge is for living. A confusion of levels can be dangerous. > > All the rest, including theories, must accommodate this fact and not the >> other way around. >> > > The trouble is "this fact" just refers to a personal feeling and so is > useless for social policy: "Did you feel that you had free will when you > shot your husband?" > > Brent > > > The negation of this is not only to twist the concepts and to reverse >> the order of science, that normally goes from evidence to theory, but it >> can also have grave social consequences. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > To post to this group, send email to > everything-list@googlegroups.**com<email@example.com> > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/**group/everything-list<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list> > . > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> > . > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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