On Saturday, October 12, 2013 3:49:22 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 11, 2013 11:32:49 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, October 11, 2013 5:37:52 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:19 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:58:30 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9 October 2013 05:25, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>>>>> > http://online.wsj.com/article/****SB1000142405270230349250457911***
>>>>>> *5310362925246.html<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303492504579115310362925246.html>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > A lot of what I am always talking about is in there...computers 
>>>>>> don't 
>>>>>> > understand produce because they have no aesthetic sensibility. A 
>>>>>> mechanical 
>>>>>> > description of a function is not the same thing as participating in 
>>>>>> an 
>>>>>> > experience. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is effectively a test for consciousness: if the entity can 
>>>>>> perform the type of task you postulate requires aesthetic 
>>>>>> sensibility, 
>>>>>> it must have aesthetic sensibility. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. That's exactly the opposite of what I am saying. The 
>>>>> failure of digital mechanism to interface with aesthetic presence is not 
>>>>> testable unless you yourself become a digital mechanism. There can never 
>>>>> be 
>>>>> a test of aesthetic sensibility because testing is by definition 
>>>>> anesthetic. To test is to measure into a system of universal 
>>>>> representation. Measurement is the removal of presence for the purpose of 
>>>>> distribution as symbol. I can draw a picture of a robot correctly 
>>>>> identifying a vegetable, but that doesn't mean that the drawing of the 
>>>>> robot is doing anything. I can make a movie of the robot cartoon, or a 
>>>>> sculpture, or an animated sculpture that has a sensor for iodine or 
>>>>> magnesium which can be correlated to a higher probability of a particular 
>>>>> vegetable, but that doesn't change anything at all. There is still no 
>>>>> robot 
>>>>> except in our experience and our expectations of its experience. The 
>>>>> robot 
>>>>> is not even a zombie, it is a puppet playing back recordings of our 
>>>>> thoughts in a clever way.
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, so it would prove nothing to you if the supermarket computers did 
>>>>> a better job than the checkout chicks. Why then did you cite this article?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because the article is consistent with my view that there is a 
>>>> fundamental difference between quantitative tasks and aesthetic awareness. 
>>>> If there were no difference, then I would expect that the problems that 
>>>> supermarket computers would have would not be related to its 
>>>> unconsciousness, but to unreliability or even willfulness developing. Why 
>>>> isn't the story "Automated cashiers have begun throwing temper tantrums at 
>>>> some locations which are contagious to certain smart phones that now 
>>>> become 
>>>> upset in sympathy...we had anticipated this, but not so soon, yadda 
>>>> yadda"? 
>>>> I think it's pretty clear why. For the same reason that all machines will 
>>>> always fall short of authentic personality and sensitivity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So you would just say that computers lack authentic personality and 
>>> sensitivity, no matter what they did.
>>>
>>
>> Beyond question, yes. I wouldn't just say it, I would bet my life on it, 
>> because I understand it completely.
>>
>
> Do you believe that computers can perform any task a human can perform? If 
> not, what is an example of a relatively simple task that a computer could 
> never perform? 
>

Perform to whose satisfaction? A cadaver can be made to twitch, or propped 
up to stand.

Being human is nothing to do with performing tasks. Our immune system 
probably does more complex tasks every minute than the whole history of 
human beings has ever done (when we build a machine that looks like an 
insulin molecule, we're still just beginning). Being human is about 
experiencing with a particular depth of sensitivity. A computer is not even 
a whole thing except in our mind. It is a collection of switches, which are 
collections of molecules. Those molecules, I think, do share sensitivity, 
or rather, there is a sensitivity which appears to our extended senses as 
molecules, but they are sensitive to very different ranges of presence.

By compulsively reducing everything to an expectation of repeatable tasks 
and behaviors, there is no chance to locate what awareness is, since it is 
the opposite of all repetition and all that is repeatable.

Craig
 

>
>
> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou
>

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