On Sunday, October 13, 2013 5:05:46 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 13 Oct 2013, at 06:47, Craig Weinberg wrote:
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>
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> On Saturday, October 12, 2013 3:54:29 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
>>
>>  On 10/12/2013 12:49 AM, freqflyer07281972 wrote:
>>  
>> Yes, but you see, even the food we get from the restaurant, is delicious. 
>> Why would it be delicious, assuming COMP. How could the primary modalities 
>> of things be good or bad assuming COMP? I know most people here think Craig 
>> is a hand waver, but I honestly cannot understand how qualia emerge from 
>> quantia, including their(meaning, my experiences) magically "emerge" from 
>> the many quants that Bruno's idea seems to require.  
>>  
>>
>> Emergence is a description of how we think about our models of the world 
>> - not something in the world.  So Bruno has a theory in which some parts 
>> are true but incommunicable.  He identifies these with qualia because that 
>> is (supposedly) a characteristic of qualia.  That's actually how all 
>> scientific theories work: you hypothesize a model, including connections to 
>> observations and see if it has explanatory and predictive power.  
>>
>
> Isn't the the characteristic of "true but incommunicable" math a rather 
> thin premise to suggest that the incommunicability of some truth = the 
> appearance of flavors, colors, sounds, etc? 
>
>
> "true but incommunicable" applies to three hypostases, and thus get three 
> different logics. How do you know in advance that one of them will not 
> throw some light on the qualia problem? Try to answer this without begging 
> the question.
>

I think that that it is the failure of logic to access qualia in any way 
which throws light on the nature of qualia. Experience cannot logically 
follow from rules, but rules can logically follow from experience. In order 
for any rule to be followed, it must be sensed in a way which motivates a 
voluntary effect on some level of description. 

If it were otherwise, and metaphysical rules could impregnate 
experience/physics from on high, then experience and physics would both be 
logically redundant. In a universe made of rules ruling over each other in 
silent and invisible information pantomime, there would be no logical use 
for qualia. To say that we should assume that there is a use and that 
physical experiences can follow metaphysical-theoretic rules is a 
worthwhile exercise, certainly, and I think that it does shed some light on 
qualia, but I think that it will always make more sense to put the head in 
front of the tail, i.e., that counting apples is a function of our wanting 
to know about apples, not a function of numbers wanting to know about 
themselves through us and the apples. If that difference between head and 
tail cannot be proved mathematically, that does not surprise me, for the 
same reason that physics cannot locate free will or awareness. The head can 
see the tail but the tail can only see the head as another part of 
itself....fallacy of the instrument.

Craig


> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> Craig
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>> Brent
>>
>>  
>> On Saturday, October 12, 2013 1:00:38 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: 
>>>
>>>  On 10/11/2013 9:44 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote:
>>>  
>>> Sometimes, Bruno, I get the feeling as though you are a chef at a 
>>> restaurant with a wonderful menu, but whenever anyone orders an item on it, 
>>> all you can do is give them exactly the same picture of the item they 
>>> ordered from the menu, but never the real thing!!! 
>>> By the way, I do think your restaurant in terms of philosophical and 
>>> intellectual satisfaction is one of the best in town! 
>>>  
>>>
>>> Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a 30,000 page menu and 
>>> no food.
>>>     --- Robert Pirsig
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>  
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