On Monday, October 14, 2013 4:37:35 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Craig Weinberg
> > wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 8:08:01 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 4:52 PM, LizR <liz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10 October 2013 09:47, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It's not that computers can't do what humans do, it's that they can't
>>>>> experience anything. Mozart could dig a hole as well as compose music,
>>>>> that doesn't mean that a backhoe with a player piano on it is Mozart.
>>>>> a much deeper problem with how machines are conceptualized that has
>>>>> at all to do with humans.
>>>> So you think "strong AI" is wrong. OK. But why can't computers
>>>> experience anything, in principle, given that people can, and assuming
>>>> people are complicated machines?
>>> I think Craig would say he does think computers (and many/all other
>>> things) do experience something,
>> You're half right. I would say:
>> 1. All experiences correspond to some natural thing.
>> 2. Not all things are natural things. Bugs Bunny has no independent
>> experience, and neither does Pinocchio.
>> 3. Computers are made of natural things but, like all machines, are
>> ultimately assembled unnaturally.
>> 4. The natural things that machines are made of would have to be very low
>> level, i.e., not gears but the molecules that make up the gears.
>> Unless a machine used living organisms, molecules would probably be the
>> only natural things which an experience would be associated with. They
>> don't know that they are part of a machine, but there is probably an
>> experience that corresponds to thermodynamic and electromagnetic
>> conditions. Experiences on that level may not be proprietary to any
>> particular molecule - it could be very exotic, who knows. Maybe every atom
>> of the same structure represents the same kind of experience on some
>> radically different time scale from ours.
>> It's not really important - the main thing is to see how there is no
>> substitute for experience and a machine which is assembled from unrelated
>> parts has no experience and cannot gain new experience in an alien context.
>> I think that a machine (or any inanimate object or symbol) can also serve
>> as a vehicle for synchronicity. That's a completely different thing because
>> it is the super-personal, holistic end of the sensible spectrum, not the
>> sub-personal, granular end. The creepiness of a ventriloquist dummy is in
>> our imagination, but that too is 'real' in an absolute sense. If your life
>> takes you on a path which tempts you to believe that machines are
>> conscious, then the super-personal lensing of your life will stack the deck
>> just enough to let you jump to those conclusions. It's what we would call
>> supernatural or coincidental, depending on which lens we use to define
>> it.. http://s33light.org/post/62173912616 (Don't you want to have a
> After reading this ( http://marshallbrain.com/discard1.htm ) I am not so
>>> just that it is necessarily different from what we experience. The
>>> reason for this has something to do with our history as biological
>>> organisms (according to his theory).
>> Right, although not necessarily just biological history, it could be
>> chemical too. We may have branched off from anything that could be made
>> into a useful machine (servant to alien agendas) long before life on Earth.
> What if humanity left behind a nano-technology that eventually evolved
> into mechanical organisms like dogs and fish, would they have animal like
> experiences despite that they descended from "unnatural" things?
The thing that makes sense to me is that the richness of sensation and
intention are inversely proportionate to the degree to which a phenomenon
can be controlled from the outside. If we put nano-tech extensions on some
living organism, then sure, the organism could learn how to use those
extensions and evolve a symbiotic post-biology. I don't think that project
would be controllable though. They would not be machines in the sense that
they would not necessarily be of service to those who created them.
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