2013/10/16 John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>

> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > It was from the book "The Many Worlds of Hugh Everett III", a book I
>> obtained and read in a large part based on you glowing review. :-)
>>
>
> Did Everett use the word "non-denumerable" in that book? I must have
> missed it. What page?
>
> > So if you agree that the branching wave function structure, which
>> creates many copies of observers in different states, can lead to first
>> person uncertainty, I do not understand why you do not see how the same can
>> arise through duplication of observers by teleportation to two locations.
>>
>
> And I don't understand the difference between "first person uncertainty"
> and plain old fashioned uncertainty.
>

The difference is that from 3rd POV it is deterministic... POV plays a
role. So as I said to you before, be consistent and reject MWI. If you
accept assigning a probability of seeing spin up/down before measuring, you
should accept the same for Bruno's thought experiment, or you must reject
both, or look like a fool.

Quentin


>
>  > Could you explain to me why subjective indeterminacy arises in MWI but
>> not in step 3 of Bruno's UDA?
>>
>
> In Bruno's United Dance Association proof, and in Everett's
> interpretation, and in every other interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, and
> in classical physics too, John Clark doesn't know what John Clark is going
> to see next. So what?
>
>   John K Clark
>
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>
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:50 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> When I saw the title of this thread I was in a quandary over if I should
>>> open it or not. It said it was for John Clark so it must be for me, but it
>>> can't be for me because it said it was for those "who ignore the importance
>>> of first person views" and subjectivity is the most important thing in the
>>> universe, or at least it is in my opinion. In the end I flipped a coin, it
>>> cane out tails so I opened it. I didn't read anything I disagreed with or
>>> hadn't seen before with one exception. I already knew Everett believed in a
>>> infinity of worlds but this is the first time I heard him say they were
>>> non-denumerable, so I'm glad I opened it.
>>>
>>>  John K Clark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> (And others who ignore the importance of first person views when it
>>>> comes to duplication.)
>>>>
>>>> I invite you to read what Hugh Everett had to say on the matter:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I believe that my theory is by far the simplest way out of the
>>>> dilemma, since it results from what is inherently a simplification of the
>>>> conventional picture, which arises from dropping one of the basic
>>>> postulates--the postulate of the discontinuous probabilistic jump in state
>>>> during the process of measurement--from the remaining very simple theory,
>>>> only to recover again this very same picture as a deduction of what will
>>>> appear to be the case for observers."
>>>>
>>>> He notes the appearance of probability from the perspective of
>>>> observers, despite an entirely deterministic theory, saying:
>>>>
>>>> "Our theory in a certain sense bridges the positions of Einstein and
>>>> Bohr, since the complete theory is quite objective and deterministic...and
>>>> yet on the subjective level...it is probabilistic in the *strong 
>>>> sense*that there is no way for observers to make any predictions better 
>>>> than the
>>>> limitations imposed by the uncertainty principle."
>>>>
>>>> So he explicitly says the fully deterministic theory (fully
>>>> deterministic from the God's eye, third person view) leads to probabilistic
>>>> (random/unpredictable) outcomes from the subjective observer's first person
>>>> view.  Even an observer who had complete knowledge of the deterministic
>>>> wave function and could predict its entire evolution could not predict
>>>> their next experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally, we have this exchange between Everett and other physicists,
>>>> including Nathan Rosen, Podolsky, Paul Dirac, Yakir Aharanov, Eugene
>>>> Wigner, and Wendell Furry at Xaviar College:
>>>>
>>>> Everett:
>>>> Well, the picture that I have is something like this: Imagine an
>>>> observer making a sequence of results of observations on a number of, let's
>>>> say, originally identical object systems. At the end of this sequence there
>>>> is a large superposition of states, each element of which contains the
>>>> observer as having recorded a particular definite sequence of the results
>>>> of observation. I identify a single element as what we think of as an
>>>> experience, but still hold that it is tenable to assert that all of the
>>>> elements simultaneously coexist.  In any single element of the final
>>>> superposition after all these measurements, you have a state which
>>>> describes the observer as having observed a quite definite and apparently
>>>> random sequence of events. Of course, it's a different sequence of events
>>>> in each element of the superposition. In fact, if one takes a very large
>>>> series of experiments, in a certain sense one can assert that for almost
>>>> all of the elements of the final supeprosition the frequencies of the
>>>> results of measurements will be in accord with what one predicts from the
>>>> ordinary picture of quantum mechanics. That is very briefly it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Podolsky: Somehow or other we have here the parallel times or parallel
>>>> worlds that science fiction likes to talk about so much.
>>>>
>>>> Everett: Yes, it's a consequence of the superposition principle that
>>>> each separate element of the superposition will obey the same laws
>>>> independent of the presence or absence of one another. Hence, why insist on
>>>> having certain selection of one of the elements as being real and all of
>>>> the others somehow mysteriously vanishing?
>>>>
>>>> Furry: This means that each of us, you see, exists on a great many
>>>> sheets or versions and it's only on this one right here that you have any
>>>> particular remembrance of the past. In some other ones we perhaps didn't
>>>> come here to Cincinnati.
>>>>
>>>> Everett: We simply do away with the reduction of the wave packet.
>>>>
>>>> Poldolsky: It's certainly consistent as far as we have heard it.
>>>>
>>>> Everett: All of the consistency of ordinary physics is preserved by the
>>>> correlation structure of this state.
>>>>
>>>> Podolsky: It looks like we would have a non-denumberable infinity of
>>>> worlds.
>>>>
>>>> Everett: Yes.
>>>>
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