On 26 Oct 2013, at 19:27, John Clark wrote:

On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 3:58 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>>>> Do you think that [you] die in a self-duplication experience?
                                       ^^^
>>>> We've been through this, it depends on who the hell "you" is. Is "you" the guy who remembers being John Clark yesterday,

>>> We have already agree that "you" concerns the guy(s) who will remember having been in Helsinki.

>> Fine, then obviously "You" will survive and equally obvious "you" will see BOTH Moscow AND Washington.

> In the third person view on the 1-views, yes. But

Ah yes, the all important "but". Bruno Marchal gave a crystal clear non-ambiguous meaning to the pronoun "you", the same one that John Clark prefers, namely ""you" concerns the guy(s) who will remember having been in Helsinki" ; but now Bruno Marchal is back-peddling because if the meaning of "you" is that clear then the flaws in Bruno Marchal's ideas become obvious. Thus it is necessary to muddy the waters with a bunch of pee pee.

So if Bruno Marchal asks again "Do you think that [you] die in a self-duplication experience?" John Clark will give the exact same answer that John Clark gave before, " it depends on who the hell "you" is".

Let me ask you this:
1) you take a plane from Helsinki to Moscow. What do you expect to see? Will you survive (assuming the usual default hypotheses like no crash, etc.) 2) you take a teleporter which cut you in Helsinki and paste you in Moscow. same question.

(I can make your usual reasoning with the throw of a coin. If you define "you" by the guy sending the coin in the air, he will die, as he is not the guy who recover the coin, etc.)

So, please, just use the definition of identity on which we have agreed.




> You are the one keeping an ambiguity by never distinguishing the 1p and 3p view,

If the meaning of the personal pronoun "you" is ambiguous then the difference between the 1p and 3p view is equally ambiguous.

Elaborate, as I don't see that. The 1p and 3p definition seems very clear to me. They don't use any pronouns, BTW.



> you fail to address the question.

John Clark has addressed it and there has never been more than one fundamental question in all this, what is the clear consistent unambiguous meaning of the personal pronoun "you"? John Clark has an answer to that and for a short time Bruno Marchal did too, but then Bruno Marchal got cold feet and abandoned it because with things that clear bad ideas have nowhere to hide.

The exact contrary. I use it all along. But in the duplications, I distinguish the 1p and the 3p, as the question bears on the 1p view, using the notion of identity on which you agree. That is why we both agree that the guy survives in both cities, and so to get the confirmation for the 1p predictions, we will listen them both and read the two diaries. The prediction "w and m" fails. The prediction "w v m" wins in all case.

You are the one stopping to apply the identity notion we agree on, by failing to keep it *and* doing the 1p/3p distinction, needed as the question bears on the prediction of the 1p experience, which exists, because we assume comp.

(I have to go).

Bruno




  John K Clark










>>  or the guy who is seeing Helsinki right now

> You can take this one, as we know that such a guy will survive the duplication (assuming comp).

>> or the guy that will see Washington tomorrow,

> Yes, it concerns also that guy, given that he has survived and he remembers being the H-guy.

>> or the guy that will see Moscow tomorrow?

> Same.

Fine, then obviously "You" will survive and equally obvious "you" will see BOTH Moscow AND Washington.

Not in the first person pov, on which bear the question.



And don't come back and repeat the irrelevant fact that each copy will see only one city because, if as Bruno Marchal said, " "you" concerns the guy(s) who will remember having been in Helsinki" then it is beyond dispute that "you" will see both cities.

True, but only from a third pov stance looking from outside to the two copies, but that is not what has been asked. Indeed; if you use your reasoning to predict that "you" will see both cities, both copies will refute it, as they see that they see only one city. The H-guy can reason from comp to predict that P(he will see only once city) is one.



And don't come back with a bunch of pee pee stuff unless the ideas can be expressed without indeterminate pronouns to hide behind.

The reasoning concerns person and the pronouns does not lead to any problem when make clear the difference between first and third person, that you avoid, apparently to evade the simple conclusion.

Bruno




 John K Clark





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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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