On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> wrote: > > The problem with modernity is precisely the confusion and madness (and I may > say lack of intellectual strenght) of this fluidity, ever depending on > audiences and personal interest that makes today amoebas to have rights ... > and tomorrow morning we can massacrate people because at last, they are like > amoebas.
Talk about a slippery slope... You seem to believe that things would be better given some past state of clear-headed rationality -- I would like you to identify the pre-modernity time period you allude to. A few practical questions then: - Should I be allowed to torture dogs for fun? - Should we try to prevent the extinctions of amoebas if the situation arose? - A Harvard scientist has been proposing the idea of finding a surrogate mother for a Neanderthal baby. If he succeeds, what's you clear-cut answer for the personhood status and rights of this creature? People that complain about the intellectual mushiness of modernity seem to forget that progress comes with new questions. Telmo. > > 2013/10/29 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> >> >> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > I know a single concept of people.... >> > >> > I wonder what´s the new concept of people, different from the one I >> > manage >> > (either philosophical or not) >> > >> > Have they rights? >> >> This is a very good question which, in fact, serves well to illustrate >> how the concept of "people" is difficult and fluid. >> >> Past issues: >> - Are other races people, do they have right? Depressingly, until the >> middle of the XX century there was no general consensus that all human >> beings are people with equal rights. >> >> Current issues: >> - Are animals people to some degree? Do they have rights? Many modern >> societies say yes, and consider some mistreatments of animals to be a >> crime; >> - Are corporations people? American law says yes, and that they have >> rights like free speech; >> >> Future issues: >> - Are aliens people? Should they have equal rights? Does that depend >> on their level of civilisational development? If yes, where to draw >> the line? >> - Are robots people? >> - Are computer emulations of the minds of dead people people? >> >> Crazy issues: >> - Are spirits and demons people? Islamic law says yes. >> >> Of course Nietzsche himself had this to say: >> "Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman -- a rope over an abyss... >> What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can >> be loved in man is that he is an overture and a going under..." >> >> So it doesn't sound that he was convinced that personhood was so clear >> cut either. Note that in the original German the mensch Übermensch has >> a meaning closer to "person" then "man". So I actually made a mistake, >> Nietzsche's concept seems compatible with Bruno's and maybe they >> wouldn't disagree to much on this. >> >> Also wikipedia, for what it's worth: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person >> >> Telmo. >> >> > >> > 2013/10/29 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Alberto G. Corona >> >> <agocor...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > Cells are people, perhaps. Dendrites and molecules lack >> >> > self-referential >> >> > means, like quarks. >> >> > >> >> > Then cows are Nietzchian superpeople. That disqualifies half of mi >> >> > fridge's >> >> > food. >> >> >> >> You can't just mix two unrelated philosophical concepts that happen to >> >> share the same string of characters and call it an argument. >> >> >> >> > >> >> > 2013/10/29 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 28 Oct 2013, at 19:55, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:53:02 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I refer you to my rare posts where I suggest that the level is the >> >> >>> molecular level, and should include the glial cells, which in my >> >> >>> opinion >> >> >>> (from diverse reading) handle to information. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I also defend the idea that an amoeba, by being unicellular, can be >> >> >>> seen >> >> >>> as a cell being simultaneously a digestive cell, a muscular cells, >> >> >>> a >> >> >>> liver >> >> >>> cell, a kidney cell, a bone cell, and a brain cell. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Amoebas are not completely stupid and deserve respects, and so are >> >> >>> any >> >> >>> each of our own cells, despite those cells in multicellular >> >> >>> organism >> >> >>> have >> >> >>> lost a bit of their freedom and universality to cooperate in what >> >> >>> is >> >> >>> ourself. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Again, the bold quote illustrates comp, and the fact that the level >> >> >>> is >> >> >>> lower than some thought. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Also with comp, consciousness is NOT a product of the mind. that's >> >> >>> still >> >> >>> too much an aristotelian way to express the "identity" thesis. >> >> >>> Consciousness >> >> >>> is not physical, it is the mental state of person associated to >> >> >>> machines, >> >> >>> when those person develop *some* true belief. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> So if dendrites and molecules are people, why not quarks and >> >> >> numbers? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cells are people, perhaps. Dendrites and molecules lack >> >> >> self-referential >> >> >> means, like quarks. >> >> >> relative numbers does not lack them, but as 3p pure notion, are not >> >> >> people, but people can emerge from them and their cognitive >> >> >> abilities. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Bruno >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> Groups >> >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> >> send >> >> >> an >> >> >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> >> To post to this group, send email to >> >> >> everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> Groups >> >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> >> send >> >> >> an >> >> >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> >> To post to this group, send email to >> >> >> everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Alberto. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "Everything List" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> > send >> >> > an >> >> > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to >> >> > everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >> an >> >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Alberto. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "Everything List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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