I´m not atacking you. I simply I like to talk with people, and for this
purpose is necessary to share a clear definition of concepts.
However, Telmo, If you don´t think so, then of course I´m attacking your
position. But not for much time because even attacking with words becomes
impossible with people that defend that lousy point of view.


2013/10/29 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>

> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > The problem with modernity is precisely the confusion and madness (and I
> may
> > say lack of intellectual strenght)  of this fluidity, ever depending on
> > audiences and personal interest that makes today amoebas to have rights
> ...
> > and tomorrow morning we can massacrate people because at last, they are
> like
> > amoebas.
>
> Talk about a slippery slope...
>
> You seem to believe that things would be better given some past state
> of clear-headed rationality -- I would like you to identify the
> pre-modernity time period you allude to. A few practical questions
> then:
>
> - Should I be allowed to torture dogs for fun?
>

That a question that has nothing to do with the question of either if a dog
or an amoeba is a person. The fallacy of changing the conversation in a way
that you climb a hill of moral superiority and then shoth down wth an
unrelated moral question is not good, to say the least, and I´m not
interested in to continue in this way. I say so from the beginning.

By the way, I´m not being moral in my previous response. I was just
consequentialist:  Relativism , lack of clear concepts ends up in
imposibility of civilized discussion and the only remaining language is
,,,, violence.  So let´s try to keep concepts clear. That is the whole
point of my thesis. What do you think about that?


> - Should we try to prevent the extinctions of amoebas if the situation
> arose?
> - A Harvard scientist has been proposing the idea of finding a
> surrogate mother for a Neanderthal baby. If he succeeds, what's you
> clear-cut answer for the personhood status and rights of this
> creature?
>
> People that complain about the intellectual mushiness of modernity
> seem to forget that progress comes with new questions.
>

> Telmo.
>
> >
> > 2013/10/29 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > I know a single concept of people....
> >> >
> >> > I wonder what´s the new concept of people, different from the one I
> >> > manage
> >> > (either philosophical or not)
> >> >
> >> > Have they rights?
> >>
> >> This is a very good question which, in fact, serves well to illustrate
> >> how the concept of "people" is difficult and fluid.
> >>
> >> Past issues:
> >> - Are other races people, do they have right? Depressingly, until the
> >> middle of the XX century there was no general consensus that all human
> >> beings are people with equal rights.
> >>
> >> Current issues:
> >> - Are animals people to some degree? Do they have rights? Many modern
> >> societies say yes, and consider some mistreatments of animals to be a
> >> crime;
> >> - Are corporations people? American law says yes, and that they have
> >> rights like free speech;
> >>
> >> Future issues:
> >> - Are aliens people? Should they have equal rights? Does that depend
> >> on their level of civilisational development? If yes, where to draw
> >> the line?
> >> - Are robots people?
> >> - Are computer emulations of the minds of dead people people?
> >>
> >> Crazy issues:
> >> - Are spirits and demons people? Islamic law says yes.
> >>
> >> Of course Nietzsche himself had this to say:
> >> "Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman -- a rope over an
> abyss...
> >> What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can
> >> be loved in man is that he is an overture and a going under..."
> >>
> >> So it doesn't sound that he was convinced that personhood was so clear
> >> cut either. Note that in the original German the mensch Übermensch has
> >> a meaning closer to "person" then "man". So I actually made a mistake,
> >> Nietzsche's concept seems compatible with Bruno's and maybe they
> >> wouldn't disagree to much on this.
> >>
> >> Also wikipedia, for what it's worth:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person
> >>
> >> Telmo.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > 2013/10/29 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Alberto G. Corona
> >> >> <agocor...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Cells are people, perhaps. Dendrites and molecules lack
> >> >> > self-referential
> >> >> > means, like quarks.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then cows are Nietzchian superpeople. That disqualifies half of mi
> >> >> > fridge's
> >> >> > food.
> >> >>
> >> >> You can't just mix two unrelated philosophical concepts that happen
> to
> >> >> share the same string of characters and call it an argument.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2013/10/29 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 28 Oct 2013, at 19:55, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:53:02 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I refer you to my rare posts where I suggest that the level is
> the
> >> >> >>> molecular level, and should include the glial cells, which in my
> >> >> >>> opinion
> >> >> >>> (from diverse reading) handle to information.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I also defend the idea that an amoeba, by being unicellular, can
> be
> >> >> >>> seen
> >> >> >>> as a cell being simultaneously a digestive cell, a muscular
> cells,
> >> >> >>> a
> >> >> >>> liver
> >> >> >>> cell, a kidney cell, a bone cell, and a brain cell.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Amoebas are not completely stupid and deserve respects, and so
> are
> >> >> >>> any
> >> >> >>> each of our own cells, despite those cells in multicellular
> >> >> >>> organism
> >> >> >>> have
> >> >> >>> lost a bit of their freedom and universality to cooperate in what
> >> >> >>> is
> >> >> >>> ourself.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Again, the bold quote illustrates comp, and the fact that the
> level
> >> >> >>> is
> >> >> >>> lower than some thought.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Also with comp, consciousness is NOT a product of the mind.
> that's
> >> >> >>> still
> >> >> >>> too much an aristotelian way to express the "identity" thesis.
> >> >> >>> Consciousness
> >> >> >>> is not physical, it is the mental state of person associated to
> >> >> >>> machines,
> >> >> >>> when those person develop *some* true belief.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So if dendrites and molecules are people, why not quarks and
> >> >> >> numbers?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Cells are people, perhaps. Dendrites and molecules lack
> >> >> >> self-referential
> >> >> >> means, like quarks.
> >> >> >> relative numbers does not lack them, but as 3p pure notion, are
> not
> >> >> >> people, but people can emerge from them and their cognitive
> >> >> >> abilities.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Bruno
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Bruno
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
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-- 
Alberto.

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