On 11/6/2013 7:44 PM, LizR wrote:
On 7 November 2013 16:39, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 11/6/2013 6:32 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

    The problem of any system ever devised is that eventually it will become 
    – through one path or another corruption will become endemic and 
increasingly it
    will parasitize the system until eventually the empty husk of the hollowed 
    society collapses as all the illusions and Ponzi schemes become marked to 
    and no one is buying into it any longer.

    Systems are human creations and suffer from all the pitfalls and blindness
    characteristic of our species. A system organized around a Party or a 
Church will
    end up creating the same social structure of a corrupt class of successful 
    families becoming entrenched at the vertices.

    In Roma there is a saying that translated more or less: “The first 
generation are
    bandits; the second generation are bankers; the third generation are 
    and by the fourth generation a Pope.” Or the Anglo saying “Behind every 
    fortune there is a great crime”

    I think it is important to look at how even a system dedicated to the 
principle of
    wiping out class has invariably spawned various nationalistic red 
bourgeoisies (the
    Radish communists – red on the outside white on the inside) Look at the 
    in the PRC; or the weird family dynasty in the PRK… or the Stalinist 
bourgeoisie of
    the former USSR. Or conversely how a system purporting to be based on the 
    of Jesus Christ resulted in the sordid history of the Papacy.

    It does not matter much what the superficial forms of a system are, if the 
    outcome is invariably the same – that is the society becomes dominated by a 
    entrenched elite that enjoys disproportionate benefits and is concerned 
only with
    its own self-serving interests.

    You keep making these arguments that everything must necessarily get worse, 
    human institution must become an oppressive force run by an oppressive 
elite for
    pure selfishness.  This is like the argument Boltzmann initially made that 
    must always, and has always increased.  To which the response was, "Then 
why is
    entropy not maximum and the world not pure chaos?  Why is there abundant 
and complex
    life?"  Maybe when you ask yourself that question your posts will become 
more than
    simple rants and counsels of despair.

Well, civilisations have fallen with boring regularity throughout history - and generally when they fell, they had an entrenched elite telling the populace that everything was hunky dory.

At least if one can believe Jared Diamond, Ronald Wright /et al/.

You miss my point. If you fall you must first get up. All I see from Chris is down, down, down. Down is inevitable. Corruption is inevitable. Oppression is inevitable. Do you see no problem with this picture?


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