From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 9:58 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World

 

On 7 November 2013 17:11, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2013 7:44 PM, LizR wrote:

On 7 November 2013 16:39, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

On 11/6/2013 6:32 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

The problem of any system ever devised is that eventually it will become
corrupted - through one path or another corruption will become endemic and
increasingly it will parasitize the system until eventually the empty husk
of the hollowed out society collapses as all the illusions and Ponzi schemes
become marked to market and no one is buying into it any longer.

Systems are human creations and suffer from all the pitfalls and blindness
characteristic of our species. A system organized around a Party or a Church
will end up creating the same social structure of a corrupt class of
successful crime families becoming entrenched at the vertices. 

In Roma there is a saying that translated more or less: "The first
generation are bandits; the second generation are bankers; the third
generation are politicians; and by the fourth generation a Pope." Or the
Anglo saying "Behind every great fortune there is a great crime" 

I think it is important to look at how even a system dedicated to the
principle of wiping out class has invariably spawned various nationalistic
red bourgeoisies (the Radish communists - red on the outside white on the
inside) Look at the princelings in the PRC; or the weird family dynasty in
the PRK. or the Stalinist bourgeoisie of the former USSR. Or conversely how
a system purporting to be based on the teachings of Jesus Christ resulted in
the sordid history of the Papacy.

It does not matter much what the superficial forms of a system are, if the
end outcome is invariably the same - that is the society becomes dominated
by a small entrenched elite that enjoys disproportionate benefits and is
concerned only with its own self-serving interests.


You keep making these arguments that everything must necessarily get worse,
every human institution must become an oppressive force run by an oppressive
elite for pure selfishness.  This is like the argument Boltzmann initially
made that entropy must always, and has always increased.  To which the
response was, "Then why is entropy not maximum and the world not pure chaos?
Why is there abundant and complex life?"  Maybe when you ask yourself that
question your posts will become more than simple rants and counsels of
despair.

Well, civilisations have fallen with boring regularity throughout history -
and generally when they fell, they had an entrenched elite telling the
populace that everything was hunky dory.

At least if one can believe Jared Diamond, Ronald Wright et al.

 

You miss my point.  If you fall you must first get up.  All I see from Chris
is down, down, down.  Down is inevitable.  Corruption is inevitable.
Oppression is inevitable.  Do you see no problem with this picture?

Well read like that, yes. My point was that what we have tended to do
historically was rise and fall, and rise again -- but now we may have got
"too big to fail" - which is a problem when we still have the same old types
of people in charge, leading us towards the usual systems failure that has
beset earlier civilisations. We urgently need to "jump out of the system"
and find a system that isn't doomed to fail.

 

My fear as well - we have made the perfect storm for ourselves, because we
have in so many ways been so very successful, but in other ways of critical
importance we have - as a species (not as individuals) - a distinct absence
of any wisdom. We are doomed by our short term thinking.

 

 

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