On 11/6/2013 9:58 PM, LizR wrote:
On 7 November 2013 17:11, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>>
On 11/6/2013 7:44 PM, LizR wrote:
On 7 November 2013 16:39, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
On 11/6/2013 6:32 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:
The problem of any system ever devised is that eventually it will become
corrupted – through one path or another corruption will become endemic
increasingly it will parasitize the system until eventually the empty
the hollowed out society collapses as all the illusions and Ponzi
become marked to market and no one is buying into it any longer.
Systems are human creations and suffer from all the pitfalls and
characteristic of our species. A system organized around a Party or a
will end up creating the same social structure of a corrupt class of
successful crime families becoming entrenched at the vertices.
In Roma there is a saying that translated more or less: “The first
are bandits; the second generation are bankers; the third generation are
politicians; and by the fourth generation a Pope.” Or the Anglo saying
every great fortune there is a great crime”
I think it is important to look at how even a system dedicated to the
principle of wiping out class has invariably spawned various
bourgeoisies (the Radish communists – red on the outside white on the
Look at the princelings in the PRC; or the weird family dynasty in the
the Stalinist bourgeoisie of the former USSR. Or conversely how a system
purporting to be based on the teachings of Jesus Christ resulted in the
history of the Papacy.
It does not matter much what the superficial forms of a system are, if
outcome is invariably the same – that is the society becomes dominated
small entrenched elite that enjoys disproportionate benefits and is
only with its own self-serving interests.
You keep making these arguments that everything must necessarily get
every human institution must become an oppressive force run by an
elite for pure selfishness. This is like the argument Boltzmann
that entropy must always, and has always increased. To which the
"Then why is entropy not maximum and the world not pure chaos? Why is
abundant and complex life?" Maybe when you ask yourself that question
posts will become more than simple rants and counsels of despair.
Well, civilisations have fallen with boring regularity throughout history -
generally when they fell, they had an entrenched elite telling the populace
everything was hunky dory.
At least if one can believe Jared Diamond, Ronald Wright /et al/.
You miss my point. If you fall you must first get up. All I see from Chris
down, down. Down is inevitable. Corruption is inevitable. Oppression is
inevitable. Do you see no problem with this picture?
Well read like that, yes. My point was that what we have tended to do historically was
rise and fall, and rise again -- but now we may have got "too big to fail" - which is a
problem when we still have the same old types of people in charge, leading us towards
the usual systems failure that has beset earlier civilisations. We urgently need to
"jump out of the system" and find a system that isn't doomed to fail.
I think that's the kind of utopianism that leads to despots. There is no "out of the
system". I'm suggesting we look at the UP. How did systems get UP before they fell. I
agree that all systems to keep power diffuse ultimately get gamed. But some work better
and last longer than others. So we need to keep creating new UP systems and keep them UP
longer. There are no final victories. But neither are there final defeats. Think of
Camus' "Myth of Sisyphus".
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