On 11/6/2013 9:58 PM, LizR wrote:
On 7 November 2013 17:11, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    On 11/6/2013 7:44 PM, LizR wrote:
    On 7 November 2013 16:39, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net
    <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

        On 11/6/2013 6:32 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote:

        The problem of any system ever devised is that eventually it will become
        corrupted – through one path or another corruption will become endemic 
        increasingly it will parasitize the system until eventually the empty 
husk of
        the hollowed out society collapses as all the illusions and Ponzi 
        become marked to market and no one is buying into it any longer.

        Systems are human creations and suffer from all the pitfalls and 
        characteristic of our species. A system organized around a Party or a 
        will end up creating the same social structure of a corrupt class of
        successful crime families becoming entrenched at the vertices.

        In Roma there is a saying that translated more or less: “The first 
        are bandits; the second generation are bankers; the third generation are
        politicians; and by the fourth generation a Pope.” Or the Anglo saying 
        every great fortune there is a great crime”

        I think it is important to look at how even a system dedicated to the
        principle of wiping out class has invariably spawned various 
nationalistic red
        bourgeoisies (the Radish communists – red on the outside white on the 
        Look at the princelings in the PRC; or the weird family dynasty in the 
PRK… or
        the Stalinist bourgeoisie of the former USSR. Or conversely how a system
        purporting to be based on the teachings of Jesus Christ resulted in the 
        history of the Papacy.

        It does not matter much what the superficial forms of a system are, if 
the end
        outcome is invariably the same – that is the society becomes dominated 
by a
        small entrenched elite that enjoys disproportionate benefits and is 
        only with its own self-serving interests.

        You keep making these arguments that everything must necessarily get 
        every human institution must become an oppressive force run by an 
        elite for pure selfishness.  This is like the argument Boltzmann 
initially made
        that entropy must always, and has always increased.  To which the 
response was,
        "Then why is entropy not maximum and the world not pure chaos?  Why is 
        abundant and complex life?"  Maybe when you ask yourself that question 
        posts will become more than simple rants and counsels of despair.

    Well, civilisations have fallen with boring regularity throughout history - 
    generally when they fell, they had an entrenched elite telling the populace 
    everything was hunky dory.

    At least if one can believe Jared Diamond, Ronald Wright /et al/.

    You miss my point.  If you fall you must first get up. All I see from Chris 
is down,
    down, down.  Down is inevitable.  Corruption is inevitable.  Oppression is
    inevitable.  Do you see no problem with this picture?

Well read like that, yes. My point was that what we have tended to do historically was rise and fall, and rise again -- but now we may have got "too big to fail" - which is a problem when we still have the same old types of people in charge, leading us towards the usual systems failure that has beset earlier civilisations. We urgently need to "jump out of the system" and find a system that isn't doomed to fail.

I think that's the kind of utopianism that leads to despots. There is no "out of the system". I'm suggesting we look at the UP. How did systems get UP before they fell. I agree that all systems to keep power diffuse ultimately get gamed. But some work better and last longer than others. So we need to keep creating new UP systems and keep them UP longer. There are no final victories. But neither are there final defeats. Think of Camus' "Myth of Sisyphus".


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