On 11/6/2013 11:08 PM, LizR wrote:
On 7 November 2013 19:52, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net <mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:

    There is no "out of the system".

A Medieval Prince, and a Medieval peasant, would have agreed, yet we seem to have jumped out of that system, at least in some parts of the world.

But not out of the system of leaders and followers, governments and citizens, which is what Chris keeps complaining about as leading to inevitable corruption and despotism.

    I'm suggesting we look at the UP.  How did systems get UP before they fell. 
 I agree
    that all systems to keep power diffuse ultimately get gamed.  But some work 
    and last longer than others.  So we need to keep creating new UP systems 
and keep
    them UP longer.  There are no final victories.  But neither are there final
    defeats.  Think of Camus' "Myth of Sisyphus".

Sisyphus is a rather depressing role model! (if you'll pardon the pun :)

Amor fati!

But I agree we need to look at how to keep going onwards and upwards. Which means we need to avoid the things that have dragged us down in the past (some of which Chris has already mentioned...)

I don't even think that's necessary. Suppose we found a really competent good hearted guy, threw a revolution and made him king. Maybe we could hire an experienced one from Sweden. Just like the old days. It would probably work fine for a while, until there got to be a big court and fights over succession and the king had to resort to brutal suppression of opposition like Iraq or got a big head as in North Korea. There's not going to be any perfect system and Chris may be right that they are all corrupted in the end. But that just means you have to start over with new systems and try to make them last longer.

Marx (and Marvin Harris) thought that political systems must be adapted to economic systems. Economic systems are changed by technology and demographics. The current mis-match in the U.S. is because the economy has shifted from manufacturing to finance. Finance doesn't take many people. Hence there's a displacement and stress on the system. But that's also an opportunity to change it.


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